Kosminski's Profession

[Paddy]

And......

The forum on Rootschat is called
GERMANY: Immigrants to East End from Germany

Pat

[RivkahChaya]

I'm thinking that we can conclude that Kosminski wasn't an especially observant Jew. Do we know whether he moved to England with his family, or by himself? If he moved by himself, when he was, say, 18, that would have been in 1883, several years before the murders, and possibly before he was exhibiting any odd behaviors.

Knowing whether he traveled by himself from Poland by himself, or with his family is important, because it would tell us how well he was functioning at the time that he moved. If it was something he decided to do on his own, he may have been deliberately leaving religious Judaism behind him, in which case, a profession where men and women apparently mixed, and had physical contact with each other might have been right up his alley. Also, if he grew up in a place where men always covered their heads and wore their hair short, and married women never showed even a lock of hair, working as a hairdresser with real hair might have been a real "in your face" to established Judaism. I remember my brother thinking of himself as a badass little rebel in junior high school when he'd sneak off with friends to eat pepperoni pizza, which is an entirely neutral act for most Americans.

Anyway, is it possible that he wasn't really off his rocker until 1891, and in 1888, still functioning pretty well?

[Robert]

Hi Riv

He didn't want to pay his muzzle fine on the sabbath, so he seems to have been religious, at least to a certain extent.

[Paddy]

Mile End Workhouse Details

Kosminski probably came over 1881/2 with his sister and brother and thier families. Nobody has found them on shipping lists that I know of...

His brother Woolfe tried to have him committed at Mile End Workhouse on 12th July 1890 but he was let out after three days. Maybe they thought the family should look after him. However on his records at that time it said he was destitute for 2 years? and insane...

See attached comment from workhouse record 12th July 1890

[Errata]

I wonder if he was the reason they emigrated? The mass emigrations from Russia were from 1880 to 1920. So 1881 is early on in the spectrum, but they weren't from a larger town that was getting rid of it's Jews. The first wave of emigrants were mostly Jews getting kicked out of large cities and settling elsewhere instead of going to the Pale. Or people who knew they were going to be targeted because of some other issue. I wonder if Kosminski's mental health, or his family's mental health made them targets. Russia was after all running 50 to 300 years behind the rest of Europe. I don't know how they regarded mental illness, but I'm not hopeful.

[Robert]

But I think Aaron's mum, Golda, remained behind.

[Paddy]

Older brother Isaac and his wife had come to Whitechapel in 1870s and also Aarons cousin Jacob Cohen and his wife Fanny had settled in Manchester.
I would have thought they came to England for the opportunity. They appear to have done fairly well for themselves here.

If Aaron did suffer from schizophrenia, doesnt it usually develope in the twenties? 1885-1888 would seem about the right age to get this. But then its about the right age to become bi-polar also. Whatever it was his family must have had a hard time looking after him.

I wonder if mum stayed in Poland or had moved to Germany with daughter Milly?

Pat...............................

[Errata]

Older brother Isaac and his wife had come to Whitechapel in 1870s and also Aarons cousin Jacob Cohen and his wife Fanny had settled in Manchester.
I would have thought they came to England for the opportunity. They appear to have done fairly well for themselves here.

If Aaron did suffer from schizophrenia, doesnt it usually develope in the twenties? 1885-1888 would seem about the right age to get this. But then its about the right age to become bi-polar also. Whatever it was his family must have had a hard time looking after him.

I wonder if mum stayed in Poland or had moved to Germany with daughter Milly?

Pat...............................

Bipolar typically manifests 18-25, Schizophrenia technically 18-35, but in reality, 30-35. But both (and many other problems) have genetic components, so if someone on his dad's side of the family went mad, and Aaron was merely odd at that point, it might have been enough to prompt getting while the getting was good so to speak. And if it was on his dad's side, his mother might have comparatively safe staying behind. Which I don't think she did. Jews never leave a mother behind. We're like the Marines like that.

[Roy Corduroy]

Aaron's mother Golda Abrahams (Kosminski) emigtrated to London as well. The entire family did, except the father, who had passed away.

On this Kosminski thread here on Casebook (click)
you see the actual asylum intake records in longhand. Occupation Hair Drefser. Duration 6 months but beside in red was written 6 years. Cause unknown but again in red self abuse.

Also recorded is Jacob Cohen's statement including that Aaron had not attempted any work in years. Maybe after talking to Mr. Cohen the red entries were made. If true, then the onset was around age 20, circa 1885.

But yes, after emigrating to London in 1881 the teenaged Aaron could have worked as a hairdresser. I've been looking at the long list of hairdressers in the 1882 London directory. Not many Jewish names at that point in time, but I did spot Phillip Cutbush, Hairdresser near Stepney Gasworks. A fork in the road.

Roy

[Robert]

Yes Roy, I know Golda came over but I meant that she probably came over later, which if true would suggest that there was no immediate danger to her in Poland (unless she had gone to another country and came from there to England).

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1644

[Errata]

Yes Roy, I know Golda came over but I meant that she probably came over later, which if true would suggest that there was no immediate danger to her in Poland (unless she had gone to another country and came from there to England).

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1644

I know it sounds like a crack when I say that Jews don't leave mothers behind, but it's really true. Any number of mostly young men emigrated from Russia, Poland, my grandfather and great Uncle came from Austria, without their parents. But invariably they left their parents behind because there were still children at home, or there was family who took their parents in. There would have been no reason for Golda to stay behind when her family left. She wouldn't have had a job, her husband was dead, traditionally she would have already been living with her eldest daughter's family. Why would she have stayed?

[Robert]

Hi Errata

I don't know why she'd have stayed, but she doesn't seem to be in England in 1891, or if she was, she wasn't where you'd expect her to be.

[Paddy]

Where was Golda

There was another sister that has never been found.
(Blimbe) Bertha Kosminkski married a Mr Held. (She was one of the sisters mentioned in newspaper report of Isaac Ambrahams death in 1920)
Did Bertha move to Germany with Matilda and Morris Lubnowski-Cohen and remain behind with Golda in Germany?
I searched for Bertha in America but could not find her anywhere. So she was either in UK, Europe or still in Poland?
Also I dont know when she married Mr Held but did search for her single name also with no luck.
Just to confuse things, the sister Hindes' (Helena, Annie) maiden name was Eleanor Cohen on her daughters birth certificate in UK, yet Annie Abrams in USA.
So Golda could be Mrs Held, Abrahams, Abrams, Kosminski, Kozminski or Cohen??
I too think Golda would have been with a family member somewhere. Its strange she wasn't with Matilda, as Morris her husband was also Goldas nephew.
To get back to the thread...When the newspaper reported about Aaron and the unmuzzled dog in 1889 it did not say he was a hairdresser then. Usually they do state profession if any in newspapers. It seems likely it would have been earlier he was a hairdresser.

Pat.....................................

[RivkahChaya]

He didn't want to pay his muzzle fine on the sabbath, so he seems to have been religious, at least to a certain extent.

Yeah, a lot of Jews become religious when it comes to not doing something they don't want to do on Shabbes. That's not a joke. Really. Which isn't to say Kosminski wasn't religious. I'm not sure we have enough evidence either way, but I don't think refusing to pay a fine is evidence of anything, unless he went in and paid the fine at the first opportunity he had as soon as Shabbes was over.

Also, if he had the presence of mind to come up with that excuse, then he was functioning reasonably well. Or someone else came up with the excuse, maybe a more religious family member.

so if someone on his [Kosminski] dad's side of the family went mad, and Aaron was merely odd at that point, it might have been enough to prompt getting while the getting was good so to speak. And if it was on his dad's side, his mother might have comparatively safe staying behind. Which I don't think she did. Jews never leave a mother behind. We're like the Marines like that.

I know it sounds like a crack when I say that Jews don't leave mothers behind, but it's really true.

Really? I know people who left mothers behind, because she wouldn't go. She felt she was too old to adapt, to learn a new language, and wanted to be buried next to her husband. Windows of opportunity opened and closed, and some people made the decision to go, and leave mother behind. My grandmother's family came, and left her father's mother behind, but she had a much younger brother, who had a wife and children, and she lived with them. My great-grandfather sent her money, when he could, which was dicey, because international money orders were very expensive, but personal checks from a bank outside the country were difficult to cash. A lot of times he sent gifts, like clothes, instead, which was expensive as well, but less burdensome on the other end once they arrived. Of course, this was the 1920s and 30s, not the 1880s and 90s.

[RivkahChaya]

If Aaron did suffer from schizophrenia, doesnt it usually develope in the twenties? 1885-1888 would seem about the right age to get this.

Bipolar typically manifests 18-25, Schizophrenia technically 18-35, but in reality, 30-35. But both (and many other problems) have genetic components

On that, most of the age of onset data is mid-20th century and later. Age of onset may have been different in the 1880s. It probably wasn't too different, but there seems to be some kind of environmental trigger for schizophrenia in vulnerable people. The thing is, no one knows what the triggers are, if they are multiple (they probably are), and what causes people to be vulnerable, although that may be genetic.

Here's some interesting data: while schizophrenia in all forms, including very mild types where people can function independently, affects about 1% of the population*, if you look at people who have a sibling with schizophrenia, the odds of the healthy person eventually being affected are about 7%, and that holds true for siblings raised apart. The number is about 15% for the child of one schizophrenic parent, and one non-schizophrenic parent. However, and this is what is really interesting, when someone has an identical twin with schizophrenia, the odds of the person developing schizophrenia are about 50%. That is startling, because it suggests that there is a very strong genetic component, but, unlike such diseases as cystic fibrosis, where genes are destiny, and what one twin has, the other must have, half of all people with an identical, schizophrenic twin, never develop the disease themselves.

So, it's clear that in addition to genetics, there is some kind environmental trigger. It could be a toxin, or a virus.

This is where differences between 1888, and the present, could result in differences in age of onset. Different toxins were present, and so were different infectious agents. There was only the smallpox inoculation, but there were other things that made people's immune systems behave differently then. People were exposed to lots more infectious agents as children, which is one reason so many died, but the ones who survived may have had immunity to things that are problems now. People probably also tended to get certain diseases at different times in life, like German measles. The reason you don't hear of it being implicated in birth defects before the 1940s, is that it was pretty rare for a pregnant woman to ever have it, because it was pretty rare for any adult to have it, and there are diseases like mumps, which are dangerous in children, but don't usually have lasting effects in children who do recover; on the other hand, an adult man who gets the mumps, even just a mild case, can be left sterile. No one even knew this until the 20th century, because mumps in an adult was so rare.

Anyway, a certain virus, Virus-X, could trigger schizophrenia in vulnerable people, but only if they catch it after puberty, and catching it in childhood may confer lifelong immunity, which may mean that if the disease is ubiquitous, it may not have been a very common trigger for schizophrenia in 1888, but after the handwashing, and clean-food campaigns of the 1930s & 40s, the disease may have become much less common, to the point that people who did get often got it as teenagers, and at that point, it became a common trigger for schizophrenia.

Similarly, a toxin may have been present in the pails used for carrying beer, and it triggered schizophrenia, so it may not have affected children much, but adults who habitually drank beer were exposed to a lot of it, so in 1888, it was a trigger. The toxin may not be present in food containers any longer, and at any rate, people don't carry beer in pails, so the toxin is no longer a trigger.

I am not an epidemiologist, psychiatrist, or even an actuary, but I always try to consider everything very carefully for assumptions, and I think that we cannot assume that what is true right now, regarding age-of-onset for schizophrenia, has always been true.

*This is probably too high in the US, as it still includes people who were, in childhood, diagnosed with "childhood schizophrenia," a diagnosis that existed in the late 1960s-about 1982, which was actually autism. When a lot of people had the diagnosis revised through the late 80s & early 90s, it caused a bump in cases of autism, which had nothing to do with vaccines, as those people were all older than the age of children receiving vaccinations, and many of them were adults. But at any rate, some of them still carry a "schizophrenia" diagnosis, even though they have a form of autism. As adults, though, the services they require, and receive, are pretty much the same, because they are not educational or therapeutic, but rather are daily living services, Medicare, that sort of thing, so the label isn't that important, except to the extent that it skews numbers.