Kosminski - Dead or Alive

[Fisherman]

So, if Anderson and Swanson were hot on the trail of Kosminski, they would have known. That sounds logical.

Mike

No matter WHO they were hot on the trail for, Mike - if that somebody was known to have been out away in an asylum, then Swanson and Anderson would have kept track of the developments. And once the news reached them that he was dead, they would want confirmation of this.

I hope that sounds equally logical.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Christer.

Would it be beyond reason to suggest that Swanson and Anderson stood to "Kosminski" as Littlechild stood to Tumblety, with respect to being dead?

But if that were what happened, it looks like rumour and speculation after the fact whilst casting about for a solution to a "cold case."

Cheers.
LC

[Phil H]

Old cases and senior men.

We know Swanson had been relieved of his ovesight responsibilities once Warren departed. Anderson would have had new issues to deal with.

If the information they received came from what they considered a reliable source, I am sure they would have accepted it at face value.

In my experience, bosses may double check information when an issue is HOT/current - the devil is often in the details - but later other things take priority and they move on. They also have better things to do than second guess their subordinates or colleagues.

The man Sir RA and DSS thought was "Jack" was incarcerated, he wasn't going anywhere, they were told he was dead. No reason to spend more time on an old case.

We now want to know, they believed they knew all they needed to. For all that the Ripper case was notorious and still demanded attention from time to time - Mackenzie, Coles etc - I suspect that the focus of their issue was elsewhere by the early 1890s. They may even have resented the caal-backs to the case which were a distraction from new problems which they may have deemed more important.

Phil

[mklhawley]

No matter WHO they were hot on the trail for, Mike - if that somebody was known to have been out away in an asylum, then Swanson and Anderson would have kept track of the developments. And once the news reached them that he was dead, they would want confirmation of this.

I hope that sounds equally logical.

The best,
Fisherman

It does.

[mklhawley]

The man Sir RA and DSS thought was "Jack" was incarcerated, he wasn't going anywhere, they were told he was dead. No reason to spend more time on an old case.

Phil

Hi Phil,

One concern I have with this is, the Jack the Ripper case was the big news of the day, and Scotland Yard didn't look so good. I just don't see them casually ignoring the case like other cases.

Mike

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer.

Would it be beyond reason to suggest that Swanson and Anderson stood to "Kosminski" as Littlechild stood to Tumblety, with respect to being dead?

But if that were what happened, it looks like rumour and speculation after the fact whilst casting about for a solution to a "cold case."

Cheers.
LC

I think these were very different matters, Lynn - I donīt see Littlechild being very keen on Tumblety at all; he was looking for somebody a bit more rough at the edges. So his erroneous belief that Tumblety did away with himself is not something I think Littlechild would have gone to any great lengths to have proven.
The asylum suspect referred to by Anderson and Swanson, though, was seemingly a man that was invested heavily in. I donīt see him being able to slip under the radar.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Old cases and senior men.

We know Swanson had been relieved of his ovesight responsibilities once Warren departed. Anderson would have had new issues to deal with.

If the information they received came from what they considered a reliable source, I am sure they would have accepted it at face value.

In my experience, bosses may double check information when an issue is HOT/current - the devil is often in the details - but later other things take priority and they move on. They also have better things to do than second guess their subordinates or colleagues.

The man Sir RA and DSS thought was "Jack" was incarcerated, he wasn't going anywhere, they were told he was dead. No reason to spend more time on an old case.

We now want to know, they believed they knew all they needed to. For all that the Ripper case was notorious and still demanded attention from time to time - Mackenzie, Coles etc - I suspect that the focus of their issue was elsewhere by the early 1890s. They may even have resented the caal-backs to the case which were a distraction from new problems which they may have deemed more important.

Phil

The Ripper was incarcerated rather quickly according to Swanson, and he died shortly afterwards. The case would not have been "an old case", Phil. My own stance is that the Ripper was so rare a bird that no matter how old he, Anderson and Swanson grew, they would keep track of him! And therefore, they would make sure that if anything significant happened to him, they would be the first to be informed.
I cannot envisage them saying: "Who? Oh, the Ripper? Him? Dead, you say?" to anybody. They would have followed the growth of the manīs toenails, if they had the possibility.

So when you are sure that they would have accepted "at face value" a bid coming from someone "reliable" that the Ripper was dead, I must disagree with you, as you will understand. If the Ripper died soon after his incarceration - and that is what we are told! - then Anderson and Swanson were still very much in office! Anderson only retired from the Met in 1901, and Swanson waited two years further. And they were both tied to the case in everybodys mind - they would have made sure they were informed.

The suggestion of a lacklustre interest on their behalf is not something I can understand readily, and both you and I know that there has never been a more high-profile murder case in British history. Plus the killer was perceived as doing something nobody else had done before him. He would have been studied meticulously, no matter if he took off to la-la-land or not.

The best,
Fisherman

[mklhawley]

I think these were very different matters, Lynn - I donīt see Littlechild being very keen on Tumblety at all; he was looking for somebody a bit more rough at the edges. So his erroneous belief that Tumblety did away with himself is not something I think Littlechild would have gone to any great lengths to have proven.
The asylum suspect referred to by Anderson and Swanson, though, was seemingly a man that was invested heavily in. I donīt see him being able to slip under the radar.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

The intention of Littclechild was to show Sims that not only was he keen on Tumblety, so was the rest of Scotland Yard in November 1888. Littlechild stated Tumblety was 'a likely suspect' and Anderson 'only thought he knew'. It was because of the MacKenzie murder that caused Anderson and company to disregard Tumblety, since Tumblety was across the Atlantic at the time.

Littlechild's involvement with Tumblety and the Whitechapel investigation occurred in November, since his old boss, Anderson, needed Tumblety's information from the Special Branch files. Littlechild not knowing of Tumblety after November 1888 is very understandable, since he personally was not investigating Tumblety, but doing important Irish nationalist stuff.

Mike

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

The intention of Littclechild was to show Sims that not only was he keen on Tumblety, so was the rest of Scotland Yard in November 1888. Littlechild stated Tumblety was 'a likely suspect' and Anderson 'only thought he knew'. It was because of the MacKenzie murder that caused Anderson and company to disregard Tumblety, since Tumblety was across the Atlantic at the time.

Littlechild's involvement with Tumblety and the Whitechapel investigation occurred in November, since his old boss, Anderson, needed Tumblety's information from the Special Branch files. Littlechild not knowing of Tumblety after November 1888 is very understandable, since he personally was not investigating Tumblety, but doing important Irish nationalist stuff.

Mike

In November 1888, anybody who could spell "knife" ran the risk of becoming a favoured suspect of the police, Iīd say. Tumblety was not a womanīs man, he was a (quack) doctor and he was somewhat exotic, so he had a lot going for him! Small wonder that the Yard went after him, thus. But in spite of Littlechild naming him a "likely" suspect, I donīt really see all that much enthusiasm on his behalf. Itīs kind of like the MacNaghten guys;"hereīs a bunch thatīs not all that bad", sort of.
It has been said that Littlechild opted for a sadist, and that Tumblety didnīt match that frame; I donīt know how they could be sure of that though. I just donīt see Littlechild carrying much of a torch here.

As for Mackenzie, there was never any universal agreement that she was a Ripper victim - some said she was, others disagreed. Bond and Phillips represented the two camps. And of course, Bond was Andersonīs man ...

The best,
Fisherman

[mklhawley]

In November 1888, anybody who could spell "knife" ran the risk of becoming a favoured suspect of the police, Iīd say. Tumblety was not a womanīs man, he was a (quack) doctor and he was somewhat exotic, so he had a lot going for him! Small wonder that the Yard went after him, thus. But in spite of Littlechild naming him a "likely" suspect, I donīt really see all that much enthusiasm on his behalf. Itīs kind of like the MacNaghten guys;"hereīs a bunch thatīs not all that bad", sort of.
It has been said that Littlechild opted for a sadist, and that Tumblety didnīt match that frame; I donīt know how they could be sure of that though. I just donīt see Littlechild carrying much of a torch here.

As for Mackenzie, there was never any universal agreement that she was a Ripper victim - some said she was, others disagreed. Bond and Phillips represented the two camps. And of course, Bond was Andersonīs man ...

The best,
Fisherman

Anderson not only personally contacted US Chiefs of Police about Tumblety, he sent Andrews to Canada for this reason. They didn't invest that much time and energy on anyone else. In view of this, you are way off the mark. You are still trying to compare Tumblety's public persona with your perception of who JTR was. Wrong thing to do, and Scotland Yard did not do this.

[Phil H]

The Ripper was incarcerated rather quickly according to Swanson, and he died shortly afterwards. The case would not have been "an old case", Phil.

It was a PAST case, Fisherman. "Old" is a relative term.What happened last week can be old to a senior civil servant/official if the agenda has shifted.

I was a UK civil servant from the mid 70s working with a lot of senior men not unlike Anderson. They focused on what was "politically" sensitive at the time, and on things that had to be done.

So yes, Anderson etc would go to a potential "Ripper" murder scene because they had to be seen to do so; they wrote about in their memoirs because it had been high-profile and remained in the piblic mind; the failure publicly to bring the culprit to justice was undoubtedly an embarrassment.

But none of that is the same as saying they continued to take a professional interest in the case. They were not paid to do so. They were paid to "grip" (as the word for it is) the issues of the moment, not of the past. Sir RA and DSS were of the view that they had put their man away - largely end of story.

That's how I see it.

Phil

[Stewart P Evans]

Why?

Why do people always leave out the 'very' from Littlechild's description of Tumblety as a 'very likely one'?

[Fisherman]

Anderson not only personally contacted US Chiefs of Police about Tumblety, he sent Andrews to Canada for this reason. They didn't invest that much time and energy on anyone else. In view of this, you are way off the mark. You are still trying to compare Tumblety's public persona with your perception of who JTR was. Wrong thing to do, and Scotland Yard did not do this.

Well, I MAY be way off the mark, just like you say.

Then again, I may be right on it - maybe my feeling that Littlechild did not really believe all that much in Tumblety is absolutely correct. We will both find it hard to prove our takes in this respect.

I notice that Stewart Evans asks why the "very" is left out when Tumblety is spoken of. And that is a fair question. In my case, I guess I am somewhat coloured - as you suggest - by my own take on who Jack was, and so I make that blunder. Littlechild wrote "very" but it is a "very" that does not feel very "very" to me. Call it a hunch, and I know that you have the upper hand semantically here, but there you are.

The yard perhaps sent Andrews after Tumblety, yes. But is that not only a perhaps? The snag here seems to be that Andrews originally went over the Atlantic to deliver a criminal from London to Toronto, so the journey seems to have been a joint venture of some sort. After that, it seems it was reported that Andrews moved on to New York, but no confirmation has been found that he arrived there.
Looking upon it like that, the Tumblety business may well have been second-hand stuff.
But I truly donīt know - Tumblety has never been on my list of truly interesting suspects (surprise!), and so I am not updated on him. He is something of a blind spot for me, so far. If I have missed out here, then I would be happy to learn more.

The best,
Fisherman

[Steve S]

I think it's fair to say that's there's at least as much evidence to support Tumblety as a contemporary Police suspect as MM's trio..........

[Fisherman]

Amounting to...?

Fisherman