Change my Mind

[clark2710]

Ok if Kosminski were the Ripper I don't see how. The more I think about it and the more everyone here talks of him, the less I believe him to be the Ripper at all. Whatever form of mental illness he had, Paranoid Schizophrenia, Bi-Polar, what have you, medications back then were meant to sedate and have a rather chemical restraint to them rather than make the sufferer's life more manageable or them being able to handle their lives better; not to mention dealing with over crowded asylums. The man was un kept, refused to bathe, was hard to deal with, put simply was just an all around difficult person. It's hard for me to swallow that this poor man was the Ripper and could "hold it together" long enough to hire a prostitute who were street savvy, could likely smell danger let alone him, etc...not to mention he was likely seen throughout the area and was known to be "OFF". I just can't see it

For those that believe Kosminski IS the Ripper: change my mind please

[erobitha]

No complaints from me.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m certainly not saying that Kosminski was the ripper Clark but it’s not a straight forward case. I’d really recommend Rob House’s excellent book but, if you don’t want to get that at the moment, here’s a dissertation written by Rob.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertations/robhouse-kosminski.html

[clark2710]

I’m certainly not saying that Kosminski was the ripper Clark but it’s not a straight forward case. I’d really recommend Rob House’s excellent book but, if you don’t want to get that at the moment, here’s a dissertation written by Rob.

https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...kosminski.html

ok that article does make many good points. It does make a few leaps of faith due to the fact that many a paper trail and opinions are lost to time. One of the main issues I have with Kosminski being the Ripper is that he'd have to clean up a little for the women to being comfy enough to go with him. The article suggests that he may have been viewed as a harmless crazy person and the women may have been like, well money is money and I need rent. but a lot of my reading lately on him is that he was a difficult person to deal with, unruly, and the treatments of the day in dealing with mental issues was to medicate to sedate rather than simply put them in a place better able to handle life and such. This does put him a bit higher though because again the article does make some good points. Thank you for sharing

[Ms Diddles]

ok that article does make many good points. It does make a few leaps of faith due to the fact that many a paper trail and opinions are lost to time. One of the main issues I have with Kosminski being the Ripper is that he'd have to clean up a little for the women to being comfy enough to go with him. The article suggests that he may have been viewed as a harmless crazy person and the women may have been like, well money is money and I need rent. but a lot of my reading lately on him is that he was a difficult person to deal with, unruly, and the treatments of the day in dealing with mental issues was to medicate to sedate rather than simply put them in a place better able to handle life and such. This does put him a bit higher though because again the article does make some good points. Thank you for sharing

Hi Clark,

I know what you're saying, and I certainly agree that the Kozminski who we read about in the notes from Colney Hatch and Leavesden would not be capable of putting the women at ease enough to lure them to a dark lonely spot.

These notes were made a few years after the events though.

Just because this was how he was presenting in 1891, doesn't mean he was like that in 1888.

Mental health can fluctuate / deteriorate.

I also believe it may be erroneous to think of the victims as street-smart and savvy.

To varying degrees, they were all likely tired, cold, drunk, hungover or unwell and desperate for a few pennies for a place to stay.

I have worked in homelessness for a long time and even now, I am still frequently astounded by some of the utterly self-destructive, reckless, downright dangerous things which people do and the crazy situations which they find themselves in.

Addiction / depression /exhaustion/ low self-esteem / neglect / grinding poverty do strange things to a person, and life can feel cheap.

I'm not saying that at the height of the scare, I honestly believe all of these women would have happily waltzed off with a drooling maniac waving a knife around, however perhaps all he would really need to do is show a couple of pennies and keep quiet?!

[clark2710]

Hi Clark,

I know what you're saying, and I certainly agree that the Kozminski who we read about in the notes from Colney Hatch and Leavesden would not be capable of putting the women at ease enough to lure them to a dark lonely spot.

These notes were made a few years after the events though.

Just because this was how he was presenting in 1891, doesn't mean he was like that in 1888.

Mental health can fluctuate / deteriorate.

I also believe it may be erroneous to think of the victims as street-smart and savvy.

To varying degrees, they were all likely tired, cold, drunk, hungover or unwell and desperate for a few pennies for a place to stay.

I have worked in homelessness for a long time and even now, I am still frequently astounded by some of the utterly self-destructive, reckless, downright dangerous things which people do and the crazy situations which they find themselves in.

Addiction / depression /exhaustion/ low self-esteem / neglect / grinding poverty do strange things to a person, and life can feel cheap.

I'm not saying that at the height of the scare, I honestly believe all of these women would have happily waltzed off with a drooling maniac waving a knife around, however perhaps all he would really need to do is show a couple of pennies and keep quiet?!

Well said and I honestly hadn't considered that the notes were written a good few after the murders. I guess I'm drawing on my own experiences, while I've never hired a prostitute myself, I do read and watch a lot of true crime documentaries. This doesn't make me an expert but one thing that stands out is that whenever dealing with prostitutes it's nearly always universally mentioned that the women of the street can sense danger in a customer, something off putting, etc...the girls take care of each other to a degree and warn of someone that's dangerous or to be careful. That's the impressions of the reading and documentaries that I've seen over the many years. Here's my question then, Ms. D, wouldn't Kosminski be "known" in the area as a bit off and not someone to commonly deal with, would his flashing a few pennies about really convince them to go with him? I mean he kept it together long enough to cut people's hair him being a barber and all.

[Ms Diddles]

Well said and I honestly hadn't considered that the notes were written a good few after the murders. I guess I'm drawing on my own experiences, while I've never hired a prostitute myself, I do read and watch a lot of true crime documentaries. This doesn't make me an expert but one thing that stands out is that whenever dealing with prostitutes it's nearly always universally mentioned that the women of the street can sense danger in a customer, something off putting, etc...the girls take care of each other to a degree and warn of someone that's dangerous or to be careful. That's the impressions of the reading and documentaries that I've seen over the many years. Here's my question then, Ms. D, wouldn't Kosminski be "known" in the area as a bit off and not someone to commonly deal with, would his flashing a few pennies about really convince them to go with him? I mean he kept it together long enough to cut people's hair him being a barber and all.

Hi Clark,

I think there is also a distinction to be made between professional prostitutes and destitute women here.

Mary was a professional prostitute.

Liz was recorded as being a prostitute when she was younger and living in Gothenburg, but who knows if she was on the game at the time of the murders?

In the cases of Polly, Annie and Kate, I see them more as being victims of circumstance and doing whatever they had to survive.

Polly had worked as a maid previously and I believe that Annie tried to make a meagre living creating and selling trinkets.

Kate had recently been hop picking in Kent as a means of making money (albeit an unsuccessful one, that year).

I don't think that these three would necessarily fit the trope of the street wise, feisty hooker.

If you are hungry and cold and tired, you will do whatever you need to do to get a bed for the night.

So yeah, I stand by my point that if Jack flashed the cash and didn't appear too overtly threatening, they would likely go with him.

It's an interesting point which you raise as to whether Koz would have been "known" in the area.

It's hard to say.

I'm not sure of the extent to which the poor Jewish community and the doss house community in Whitechapel would have mixed.

Unless Koz was in his full-blown, unkempt, eating from the gutter phase, I see no reason to believe that his symptoms would have been apparent.

To be clear, my position is not that I believe Koz was the Ripper.

I just don't think there is enough to eliminate him.

As someone (Abby? Herlock?) said in another post, all the suspects are quite weak.

Koz is just (to my mind) less weak than some.

[clark2710]

Hi Clark,

I think there is also a distinction to be made between professional prostitutes and destitute women here.

Mary was a professional prostitute.

Liz was recorded as being a prostitute when she was younger and living in Gothenburg, but who knows if she was on the game at the time of the murders?

In the cases of Polly, Annie and Kate, I see them more as being victims of circumstance and doing whatever they had to survive.

Polly had worked as a maid previously and I believe that Annie tried to make a meagre living creating and selling trinkets.

Kate had recently been hop picking in Kent as a means of making money (albeit an unsuccessful one, that year).

I don't think that these three would necessarily fit the trope of the street wise, feisty hooker.

If you are hungry and cold and tired, you will do whatever you need to do to get a bed for the night.

So yeah, I stand by my point that if Jack flashed the cash and didn't appear too overtly threatening, they would likely go with him.

It's an interesting point which you raise as to whether Koz would have been "known" in the area.

It's hard to say.

I'm not sure of the extent to which the poor Jewish community and the doss house community in Whitechapel would have mixed.

Unless Koz was in his full-blown, unkempt, eating from the gutter phase, I see no reason to believe that his symptoms would have been apparent.

To be clear, my position is not that I believe Koz was the Ripper.

I just don't think there is enough to eliminate him.

As someone (Abby? Herlock?) said in another post, all the suspects are quite weak.

Koz is just (to my mind) less weak than some.

Put simply m'Lady you have brought me a bit farther in the realm of "changing my mind" I see your points here.

[Fantomas]

The much compromised and flawed, hardly granular TV investigation of the matter by David Wilson concluded that Kosminski was the prime suspect. This plus David Wilson being involved at all, reassured my gut feeling, after twenty five years of reading on the subject that Kosminski isn't a good fit at all.