Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Robert]

There was Scott Nelson's Isaac Kosminski, but he isn't as good a fit as Aaron.

[Roy Corduroy]

Breaking News !

What you said on the other thread, Fish -

Charles Lechmere has Aaron Kosminski well and truly beaten!

Doggonit Fish, why didn't you say that in the first place, and forego your other 93 posts?

Roy

[Fisherman]

Roy C:

"why didn't you say that in the first place, and forego your other 93 posts?"

But then you would miss all the suspense, would you not?

The best,
Fisherman

[Bridewell]

Aaron

Much debate about the fact that Aaron Kosminski is never mentioned. Fair enough - only the surname Kosminski is given in both the MacNaghten Memoranda & the Swanson Marginalia.

MacNaghten says of his Kosminski: "Polish Jew, resident in Whitechapel"

Swanson says Anderson's suspect ended up in Colney Hatch via Stepney Workhouse.

If we accept that Kosminski had a first name then it may, or may not, have been Aaron, but there was a first name. No-one has to accept that the Kosminski named by both MacNaghten and Swanson was named Aaron. No-one is an exact fit. However, anyone who insists that Aaron must be absolved of guilt might perhaps give an indication as to which Kosminskis are a better fit than (or even nearly as good a fit as) Aaron - and why.

For the record, I don't think, on the balance of probabilities, that Aaron Kosminski was the Ripper. I do think though, on the same basis, that he was Anderson's suspect unless, and until, a better candidate is presented.

Regards, Bridewell

[Jenni Shelden]

Jenni Shelden:

"there is evidence"

There is, indeed! Clear and unambiguos evidence that three senior officers regarded him as a suspect (one did NOT name him, in fact, and NONE named Aaron Kosminski).

That is what there is evidence of. Likewise, there is evidence that Ostrog, Druitt, Issenschmidt, Sadler, Pizer and a few more were named by policemen back in 1888. In neither case does that evidence go to show that these men were good or even justified suspects.

The best,
Fisherman

they as good as named him as others have said more eloquently than i could

[Fisherman]

"As good as"? Aha.

Letīs for argumentsīsake assume that what some posters consider an ID as good as made actually amounts to an ID well and truly made, Jenni - what evidence do you mean it supplies Aaron Kosminski with?

Does it put him on the spot, furnish him with bloodied clothes, provide him with a knife with small slivers of Eddowesīkidney on it...? Or what?

The "evidence" you speak of - what is it?

Letīs - retrospectively - put Kosminski (K) on the stand, and let the proceedings begin, using Anderson (A) as the prosecutor and Smith (S) as the counsellor for the defence:

A: Aaron Kosminski, I put it to you that you are the Ripper!

S: Ridiculous! What have you got to prove it?

A: I suspect him.

S: Well, you just said, didnīt you? But why?

A: He did it.

K: Pfffth ...

S: But donīt you see, Robert, that you need to prove it? Now, whatīs the evidewnce?

A: I am the former chief of the Metropolitan police! And when I say somethi...

S: Balderdash! You need PROOF!

K: Hmmmhmhmmmm ...

A: No I donīt. Iīve got evidence instead.

S: Which is...?

A: Well, I suspect him.

Not a club I would want to join, given the "evidence" existing...

The best,
Fisherman

[Robert]

Of course, Lechmere, with one forename and two surnames, scores over Kosminski with no forename and one surname, by 200%. I've got nothing against Lechmere. The trouble is...neither have you, Mr Spiggott.

[Chris]

There was Scott Nelson's Isaac Kosminski, but he isn't as good a fit as Aaron.

I think if there is to be a better fit than Aaron it would have to be someone who was recorded in the asylum records and workhouse records and whose death was registered under another surname than Kosminski. Obviously that possibility is hard to disprove, but one has to ask why the police would have referred to him as 'Kosminski' if he was recorded everywhere else as Kaye or something.

And actually Aaron is rather a good fit for the descriptions given. There is the fact that Swanson thought 'Kosminski' died shortly after going into Colney Hatch. But that's not so much a discrepancy between Aaron and the police accounts as an inconsistency in the police accounts, because in the Aberconway version Macnaghten expressed the belief that 'Kosminski' was still alive. That statement is absent from the official version. (Interestingly, so is his final comment on Ostrog: "He is still alive".)

Then there is Swanson's mistaken reference to Stepney workhouse. But viewed another way, that is actually quite a strong point in Aaron's favour. Why should 'Kosminski' have been sent to Stepney workhouse if he lived in his brother's house in Whitechapel? Something is obviously wrong with that, and maybe even if we didn't know about Aaron's history someone would have arrived at the logical explanation that Swanson meant Mile End Old Town workhouse, which is in Stepney, and that 'Kosminski' lived in that part of Mile End Old Town which was only a stone's throw from Whitechapel church.

That leaves Macnaghten's date of March 1889. If someone really believes in this alternative 'Kosminski' and wants to do a bit of research, they could look for a Polish Jew with an anglicised surname who was admitted to Colney Hatch around March 1889, probably from Mile End Old Town workhouse, and who died soon afterwards. But I don't think they'll find such a person.

[Fisherman]

I must warn you, Robert - this is not a Lechmere thread. And if it was, it would have been TWO forenames and two surnames

All the best,
Fisherman

[Robert]

Hi Chris

I think probably the best alternative to Aaron Kosminski, from the point of view of the Polish Jew theory, would be David Cohen. But that takes us into very murky waters.

[Fisherman]

Chris:

"... actually Aaron is rather a good fit for the descriptions given"

Strong homicidal tendencies, anybody?

On the whole, of course, Aaron IS the best bid so far for Kosminskiīs role. But Aaron Kosminski seems not a good bid for the dangerous, murderous, womanhating homicidal man described in the memoranda.

Could it be that Anderson added some spice to the truth, trying to rub in that he had found the killer? Was Kosminski fit up by Anderson?

Of course, we know that Ostrog TOO was described as a homicidal maniac, a man with the worst possible rap sheet. Likewise we know that this was apparently nowhere even near the truth.

So why are the suspects described as something they seem not to have been? Thatīs the million dollar question.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Robert:

"I think probably the best alternative to Aaron Kosminski, from the point of view of the Polish Jew theory, would be David Cohen. But that takes us into very murky waters."

Why would we mind - we are USED to very murky waters.

The best,
Fisherman

[robhouse]

Chris:

"... actually Aaron is rather a good fit for the descriptions given"

Strong homicidal tendencies, anybody?

On the whole, of course, Aaron IS the best bid so far for Kosminskiīs role. But Aaron Kosminski seems not a good bid for the dangerous, murderous, womanhating homicidal man described in the memoranda.

Could it be that Anderson added some spice to the truth, trying to rub in that he had found the killer? Was Kosminski fit up by Anderson?

Of course, we know that Ostrog TOO was described as a homicidal maniac, a man with the worst possible rap sheet. Likewise we know that this was apparently nowhere even near the truth.

So why are the suspects described as something they seem not to have been? Thatīs the million dollar question.

The best,
Fisherman

Seems to me that a suspect who is on the record as having threatened his sister with a knife, is potentially in line with a "womanhating homicidal man." Why is this such a problem?

Do you expect a serial killer to exhibit violent behavior in prison, or when incarcerated in an asylum? Did Dahmer? Did Sutcliffe? Did Bundy? Serial killers are typically cowards. When they are incarcerated they do not have access to their victims, who are generally vulnerable females. Most serial killers are described as "model prisoners". Moreover, the supposed statement that Kozminski was "harmless"... where does that come from? He is never described as harmless. There was a line on a form, "Dangerous to Others?" Answered "No". Where did that answer come from? Undoubtedly, they asked the person who brought him to the workhouse... ie. Kozminski's brother, probably Wolf Abrahams. So keep in mind that this is where the idea of "harmless" comes from. Kozminski's own family... who would not (presumably) want to incriminate him as the Ripper.

RH

[Monty]

Kosminski is a far better candidate as a " murderous, womanhating homicidal man" than Charles Cross...and I suspect that is the basis for this dismissive stance from certain quarters.

Of course, the memo was never an official document (though produced by an authority) yet it does have Houchins referral to support Kosminskis aggression.

Again, that's more than some recently accused innocent.

Monty

[AdamNeilWood]

Do you expect a serial killer to exhibit violent behavior in prison, or when incarcerated in an asylum? Did Dahmer? Did Sutcliffe? Did Bundy? Serial killers are typically cowards. When they are incarcerated they do not have access to their victims, who are generally vulnerable females. Most serial killers are described as "model prisoners".

Excellent point, Rob.