Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

And would someone really refuse to testify against a serial killer simply because he was a fellow jew? That alone sounds fishy and antisemitic.

Actually I think one of the many merits of Rob House's book is that he actually puts Anderson's comments into their proper historical context.

Anderson's belief was grounded in reality....East End Jews were reluctant to acknowledge the crimes of other Jews. Rob does get into this in detail in his book.

I tried to tackle some of this in this post at the Forums:

http://jtrforums.com/showpost.php?p=180221&postcount=58

[Dr. John Watson]

Reality Check

The only sources naming Aaron Kosminski as a suspect in the Ripper murders are MacNaughton and Swanson, with Swanson identifying Kosminski as the anonymous "Polish Jew" mentioned by Anderson. MacNaughton was not on the police force during the killings, so everything he wrote is based on hearsay. Anderson and Swanson were actively engaged in finding the Ripper, but their statements regarding Kosminski, written years later, contain significant errors of fact. More importantly, they offer nothing in the way of hard evidence to corroberate their claim and conveniently omit verifiable details. For instance, while Swanson tells of a crucial identification at the "Seaside Home," he gives no date, no reason for the unusual location, and no identification of the witness or any officers who were present during the identification.

If such an identification had occurred and if Kosminski was the suspect, the witness must have been Isreal Schwartz. In Kosminski's condition, had a strange woman accosted him on the street, I can see him grabbing her, pushing her away and fleeing in fear. So Kosminski could have been the man seen by Schwartz. But Schwartz would not have identified Kosminski as the Ripper because he didn't see who pulled Stride into Dutfield's Yard and there cut her throat. Swanson is libeling an innocent man if he's relying on Schwartz. And if not Schwartz, the unnamed witness must be one who saw a man chatting up Eddowes on Duke Street. Forgetting for a moment that no one claims to have had a good look at this suspect's face, and knowing what we do about Kosminski, can you imagine any woman being induced to follow this wretched man into a dark corner of Mitre Square at the height of the Ripper scare?

Regarding Aaron Kosminski, the symptoms documented by his treating physicians are consistent with someone suffering from advanced schizophrenia, most significant being the references to hallucinations and paranoia leading to an unrealistic fear of all others. This disease usually first appears in young adults, and sufferers are far more likely to harm themselves than others. Schizophrenics have killed others, but their inability to deal with reality causes them to make mistakes which usually lead to their quick arrest. While Kosminski cannot be ruled out as a suspect, taking into account the mental disease that warped his mind and the descriptions of his appearence and mannerisms, he is perhaps the least likely Jack the Ripper ever so named.

John

[Tom_Wescott]

Revelations on the horizon?

Hello all,

After reading the posts on this thread its clear that some members either have information that the rest of us dont even know exists, or that assumptions of truth and accuracy are being used as bread crumb trails to some kind of revelation.

I keep reading that some 'revelation' is on the horizon. I can only hope this is true, but the tone of these posts are accusatory, as though there would be something bad about more revelations regarding Kozminski coming forth? The funny thing is, these posts are coming from people like Michael, who are barely even able to concede that Kozminski existed, let alone was a viable Ripper suspect. If this is so, then HOW could any 'revelation' be possible? I'm lost.

Point of clarification - you're not suggesting that the 90% are working off a premise of a killer acting with collaborators, are you? (Not that that is a bad notion.....)

I might have exaggerated a little with 90%, and I certainly don't mean to suggest that there's any kind of consensus among Ripperphiles. Some certainly believe there were more than one murder working in tandem, and others believe there were multiple murderers working separately. And no doubt there's other combinations I haven't thought of.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Schizophrenics have killed others, but their inability to deal with reality causes them to make mistakes which usually lead to their quick arrest. While Kosminski cannot be ruled out as a suspect, taking into account the mental disease that warped his mind and the descriptions of his appearence and mannerisms, he is perhaps the least likely Jack the Ripper ever so named.

I think Cream holds that distinction but if some said Lewis Carroll I wouldn't put up a fight.

Rob House wouldn't disagree with you vis a vis schizophrenics, I suspect. Obviously he can chime in if I am wrong. It's not the schizophrenia but the comorbid psychopathic anti social tendencies as reflected by Macnaghten's statement that he "had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class, & had strong homicidal tendencies." P. 304

I can't do justice to an eighteen page chapter on "Schizophrenia and Violence" but just want to point out he is not "building" his case solely on schizophrenia. The "Instinct" wasn't necessarily commanding Kos to kill along Son of Sam lines. (....if Berkowitz is to be believed....)

[Tom_Wescott]

I would say the escaped primate theory beats them all, but then, if the gorilla was not schizo, Dr. Watson would presumably still see him as more viable than the Koz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Originally Posted by Sir Robert Anderson

Point of clarification - you're not suggesting that the 90% are working off a premise of a killer acting with collaborators, are you? (Not that that is a bad notion.....)

I might have exaggerated a little with 90%, and I certainly don't mean to suggest that there's any kind of consensus among Ripperphiles. Some certainly believe there were more than one murder working in tandem, and others believe there were multiple murderers working separately. And no doubt there's other combinations I haven't thought of.

I think we have yet to consider time travel in this thread, which would open up a myriad of possibilities for accomplices as well as conspiracies. The Special Branch traveling back in time to place redacted files that they themselves won't let us see...

We don't have any major disagreements that I can think of regarding Kosminski but I am interested in this "little less" than 90% because although it may well be the correct point of view I would of considered it was a small minority that think Jack worked with someone, and a slightly larger group that believes in between zero and five Rippers. So maybe you get up to a quarter of the message board "community" thinking that way. And I think the online population oversamples the lunatic fringe. (Present company excluded, of course.)

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

I would say the escaped primate theory beats them all,

You win.

[robhouse]

There is nothing of any mention of Aaron Kosminski in any document, ever, connected to the murders.

Macnaghten memorandum.

Document? yes.

Mentions Kozminski? Yes.

In connection to murders? Yes.

RH

[Errata]

Of course it's not an original thought but do we really know that Kosminski is such an unlikely suspect?

Apart from the tantalising account of his arrest for exercising an unmuzzled dog, we really don't know what his day to day behaviour was like. In fact the accounts of the dog case make him seem quite chirpy...He could have been, pre-asylum, quite an outgoing character...

Once he is incarcerated, however, he seems to fold in on himself...almost collapse and hide within himself...I'm no expert but have heard that this is far from unusual...didn't I hear even Sutcliffe withdrew within himself once shut away?

And I'd guess as time went by he'd become institutionalised and shut his real "me" even further away...hence lapses into periods of speaking only in a foreign tongue (perhaps Yiddish?)...

So possibly his post-1891 behaviour is at odds with that shown before?

All the best

Dave

Well, some things we do know by conspicuous absence. Well, not KNOW. Have every reason to believe to be true. We know he wasn't violent because he has no arrest record, barring the dog walking. Which doesn't mean he never got into it with anyone, but he didn't have a predictable pattern of violence.

We know he was unlikely to be sexually violent, because members of his family had no problems with him staying under the same roof as their wives or sisters, until the knife incident. Now a man could easily be a sexual predator without ever getting arrested, but the odds of him not creeping out the women in his family are pretty slim. Yes, wives have a tendency to ignore or rationalize such things in their husbands, but not a sister in law. And he lived with members of his family mostly. So an obvious conclusion was that they didn't consider him a threat.

And being in an institution is a terrible thing. Even today. Even when the end result is an improvement, it changes you. It's something that most people don't realize. Being crazy is one kind of burden. Being around crazy people when you don't feel in control is terrifying. And that you may be nuttier than they are doesn't matter. Think about how uncomfortable most people are when a guy starts crying for legitimate reasons. Now imagine it happens around you all the time. Not to mention the screaming, the deranged laughing, the yelling, the fighting. It's like taking a beating. Every day. And it just tears you apart. That's why after awhile people can't leave asylums. It's why today, the only people who go into them are the ones they know will never leave. Otherwise it's a 30 day stint in a psych hospital. It's worse than being a prisoner, better than being a POW, but sheer hell.

I'm sure Kosminski was not the broken man outside that he was in the asylum. Well, Maybe in that last year when things got bad for him. But I think he was likely a normal guy when not in the grips of his illness. And on the outside he could have gotten that back for some period of time between episodes. Probably with decreasing frequency and period. But in the asylum he would never have been safe enough to recover. He would have been under constant sensory assault, and it would have kept him off balance every day for the rest of his life. It's why they died young. No real rest.

That was maudlin...

[Wickerman]

I would say the escaped primate theory beats them all, but then, if the gorilla was not schizo, Dr. Watson would presumably still see him as more viable than the Koz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I kinda liked the singular marauding Zulu theory. I mean that assegai blade must have been at least 6-8 inch long, and he would simply disappear when he stood in the shadows...

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

We know he wasn't violent because he has no arrest record, barring the dog walking. Which doesn't mean he never got into it with anyone, but he didn't have a predictable pattern of violence.

I'm curious why so many posters are willing to ignore, or minimize, the threatening his sister with a knife episode. Do people think it didn't happen, or was exaggerated? Sincere question.

We know he was unlikely to be sexually violent, because members of his family had no problems with him staying under the same roof as their wives or sisters, until the knife incident.

The masturbation could have been awkward in close quarters, aside from the knife thingie.

Think about how uncomfortable most people are when a guy starts crying for legitimate reasons. Now imagine it happens around you all the time. Not to mention the screaming, the deranged laughing, the yelling, the fighting. It's like taking a beating. Every day.

Sort of like this thread.....

I'd go back to Diary World but they're seeing FM everywhere at the moment and I won't eat the brown acid.

I'm sure Kosminski was not the broken man outside that he was in the asylum. Well, Maybe in that last year when things got bad for him. But I think he was likely a normal guy when not in the grips of his illness.

I think Mr. House would agree with that. Hazelwood makes a comment that the women would have gone anywhere for a schilling (p.308 he expresses it more crudely than I....and he's overpaying to boot....) but I don't think that was true. Stride turned away business it appears. Of course that didn't work out that well that one time......I think Kos needed to have his act together at least outwardly at times, if not most of the time.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

I kinda liked the singular marauding Zulu theory.

I stand corrected. Wickerman, please take First Prize away from Tom and the ape.

[Tom_Wescott]

We don't have any major disagreements that I can think of regarding Kosminski but I am interested in this "little less" than 90% because although it may well be the correct point of view I would of considered it was a small minority that think Jack worked with someone, and a slightly larger group that believes in between zero and five Rippers. So maybe you get up to a quarter of the message board "community" thinking that way. And I think the online population oversamples the lunatic fringe. (Present company excluded, of course.)

It's a matter of perspective. Here's an example:

Poster 1: I believe the Ripper killed 6 women - the C5 and Tabram.

Poster 2: I believe the Ripper killed only 5 women, the C5.

Poster 3: Then you believe in two killers working separately.

Poster 4: No, he only believes in one killer for the Ripper murders, because Tabram wasn't one of those.

Poster 1: Inspector Reid said she was, and so did many other investigators. So, yes, Poster 2 believes in multiple killers.

You see what I'm saying. And this is just one example. But two theorists can even believe in the same suspect, but attribute a different number of victims to him. Poster 2's perspective is that he believes in one Ripper, but Poster 1 sees it differently, based solely on the victim attribution.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil H]

Can you or can you not directly connect Aaron Kosminski to any of the murders in Whitechapel 1888? If not.. Kosminski is on a par with Sickert. Or PAV. Or whoever has been dreamt up in this business. It's a simple question. Yes or no.

Just to intrude on an historical point.

KOSMINSKI (though not Aaron Kosminski for certain) does have a primacy over such suspects as PAV or Sickert because he was mentioned, at the time, by three senior officials connected closely to the case.

As Aaron Kosminski fits the bill fairly closely as the man Swanson and Anderson were referring to, then it is legitimate to put him in the niche for the purposes of research and discussion. If he can be eliminated, then we go back to wondering who was meant by Kosminski. But someone was, that is clear.

Druitt is in much the same position - identified slightly more precisely (though with errors) by MM. But there is less, IMHO, circumstantially to connect MJD with the murders than there is Aaron, who had a connection with the area.

Phil H

[Dr. John Watson]

I think Cream holds that distinction but if some said Lewis Carroll I wouldn't put up a fight.

I suggest either Cream or Carroll would have far better success luring women to their death than Kosminski, and you can even add Tumblety to the list!

It's not the schizophrenia but the comorbid psychopathic anti social tendencies as reflected by Macnaghten's statement that he "had a great hatred of women, specially of the prostitute class, & had strong homicidal tendencies." P. 304

Since Macnaghten failed to cite a verifiable authority for the comments about hatred of women and homicidal tendencies, his statements have little value. Besides, hatred of women and homicidal tendencies are not necessarily indicitive of mental illness, comorbic or otherwise. More to the point, as I recall, Kosminski's medical reports fail to substantiate any evidence of homicidal tendencies or other violent propensities which might suggest a coexisting mental disorder in addition to his schizophrenia.

I can't do justice to an eighteen page chapter on "Schizophrenia and Violence" but just want to point out he is not "building" his case solely on schizophrenia. The "Instinct" wasn't necessarily commanding Kos to kill along Son of Sam lines. (....if Berkowitz is to be believed....)

I can't either since I haven't read it, and I don't claim to be an expert on the subject (although I did a thesis on it in college and have interviewed several schizophrenic offenders over the years). But I can state that based on the medical records I've read, Kosminski fits the usual profile of a person with that illness, and that profile does not include serial murder. Mass murder possibly, but not serial murder. Berkowitz represents an exception to the rule; certainly schizophrenic, but driven to murder by some other coexisting mental disorder. The Ripper, in my opinion, was not schizophrenic and possibly not psychotic, but he was most certainly a sociopathic sadist who hated women to the point of wanting not only to kill them, but to literally destroy them. He could commit these ghastly murders and mutilations without feelings of guilt or remorse, and then put on a face of complete innocence to all around him. This description simply does not fit Kosminski.

Son of John