Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Errata]

We don't know how crazy etc, Kosminski was. When the family took him to the workhouse it was with his hands tied behind his back.

Phil H

We do know how crazy he was. We know he took some spectacular vacations from reality, we just don't know if he moved in, so to speak. We know some of the things he did, and even today they would be considered severe. What we don't know is if it was episodic or permanent. Did he have psychotic breaks from stress, or illness, or some other trigger, or was he hallucinatory or Schizophrenic? And it matters, because certain conditions preclude stealth. But that's the bit we don't know.

[Phil H]

Well, errata, we'll have to live with that unless or until more information becomes available.

Those who wrote about the ID were around at the time and may have met, spoken to or assessed him. They could make a judgement - and clearly it satisfied at least two highly placed officials. We cannot do the same on the basis of present knowledge - but I think we have reason to trust the judgement of a man like Swanson (even if not Anderson).

My only point was that the family needed only the barest precautions to get him to the workhouse.

Phil H

[Chris]

If Aaron was my brother I would call in all help I could to have him supported at any identification process. I am sure his family were very suportive so who would they call in?
Jewish board of Guardians or maybe the Russian Embassy? I seem to recall that Aaron was ranting about the Russians protecting him, in the asylum?
How would a citizen of another country be treated in such circumstances I wonder. Any thoughts on legalities?

To go back to Pat's original post, that's an interesting thought. My assumption has been that the statement "Believes he is under protection of Russian Consolate" probably reflected Aaron having been unhappy about his detention and/or the way he was being treated, and having pointed out to the asylum staff that he was still technically a Russian subject (unlike his brother Woolf, for example, who had been naturalised) and could apply to the Russian government for help. I suppose that would have been true in theory, though in the circumstances it's difficult to imagine the Russian government would have shown any interest, particularly as Aaron had been resident in London for more than a decade. But I think that if Aaron was making such an argument it would be a further illustration that - as Rob says - he was hardly in an 'imbecilic' condition even as late as 1893.

It's also an interesting question about whether the Jewish Board of Guardians might have had any involvement in what happened. My feeling is that Aaron might have been sent to the 'Seaside Home' (whatever that was) as a patient, as a way of subjecting him to identification without the public, or perhaps even Aaron himself, being aware of it. If that's what happened perhaps the Jewish Board of Guardians might have had a part to play.

[Paddy]

OK Another theory folks........

In Henrys memoir in the Thomsons weekly advertiser he mentions seeing an informer..(I believe this was later on another case though)
The Informer actually was at 81 Greenfield street. I think it was possibly a Jewish reception or lodging place before it became a Synagogue.
Sorry I am not quoting the source but I shall look. This particular informer would not be the witness in question however.

But what if the witness was one of the CIDs informants from that area. Even if they did identify AK or whoever, how would that stand in a trial?
If they were known informants and known to take a bung now and then, would they be a reliable witness?

Pat

[Paddy]

Sorry In Henry Cox's Memoir.......... (1st para)

[Paddy]

This was in newspaper dated 1889 (please dont ask I am so rubbish at sourcing)

I found it while I was looking for Kosminski and thought the "Abrahams" mentioned might have been him..
On further research it was more likely brother of one of the men arrested.(named in further article)

However it does show what some clubs were like.

Hope it attaches never done this before...................

[Paddy]

You must forgive my lateness of quotes.. This research was in the past.
Here is source..................

Tue 04 Jun 1889, London Standard, London, England

Pat

[Tom_Wescott]

I find that very, very interesting, Pat. The Bel Club? That doesn't ring a bell with me, and I'm not sure that's the correct name. I will say that the Berner Street club had affiliates in Mile End Road and regularly gave their outdoor speeches at the Mile End Waste.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[robhouse]

This was in newspaper dated 1889 (please dont ask I am so rubbish at sourcing)

I found it while I was looking for Kosminski and thought the "Abrahams" mentioned might have been him..
On further research it was more likely brother of one of the men arrested.(named in further article)

However it does show what some clubs were like.

Hope it attaches never done this before...................

Whoa.. that's pretty interesting.

Fieldgate Street is right in the right place. Important to remember that Aaron might have gone by the name Abrahams also. I, likewise, have not heard of the Bel Club? Anyone have any clue about this type of club, said to be a disgrace to the neighborhood, and "half the crime originated in them."?

I am a bit confused about what this is saying actually. The girls went in to "demand a man named Abrahams whom it was alleged had seduced a Christian girl." --- what does that mean?

RH

[Paddy]

Hi Tom I did look into it. The Bell Club was probably affiliated or named after the Bell Foundry. I did contact Bell Foundry history web site and they had nothing on a club.

Interestingly I seem to remember that some of the young men (all around Aarons Kosminskis age) were hairdressers.
the article was followed up and the prisoners were named. I could see how a dissaffected young man could get drawn in.

Another article I read once was of a man called Mr Sugar ran a shop at the Bell side of Fieldgate street (It was somewhere between no 1 to 10). He has been mentioned a few times
Sorry Sir Alan !

Pat

[Errata]

To go back to Pat's original post, that's an interesting thought. My assumption has been that the statement "Believes he is under protection of Russian Consolate" probably reflected Aaron having been unhappy about his detention and/or the way he was being treated, and having pointed out to the asylum staff that he was still technically a Russian subject (unlike his brother Woolf, for example, who had been naturalised) and could apply to the Russian government for help. I suppose that would have been true in theory, though in the circumstances it's difficult to imagine the Russian government would have shown any interest, particularly as Aaron had been resident in London for more than a decade. But I think that if Aaron was making such an argument it would be a further illustration that - as Rob says - he was hardly in an 'imbecilic' condition even as late as 1893.

Of course, it could also be that he said he under the protection of the Russian Consulate because he thought he was the Czar. He evidently had a few swings into delusion, but without knowing why we can't say if he did it with any predictable frequency. But in truth, he wasn't under the protection of the Russian Consulate. Firstly, Jews from the Pale had no status with any consulate, and secondly Russia had some problems. If he had any brush with international news before his incarceration, he would have known that the consulate could not and would not help him. And it would take a delusional narcissist to believe otherwise. So if he was sane, and he said that, it was probably a bluff to see if he could put people off until they checked that claim out.

Jews in the Pale were not recognized by their government except to impose quotas on them, and conscript them into the army. They got nothing from Russia. No taxes benefited them, no justice was available to them, as far as Russia was concerned, they were not Russian. They weren't counted as Russians in what passed for a census. And that wasn't a new development at the time of Kosminski's incarceration. That had been the deal for two generations at that point. He wasn't a Russian citizen. He was from Russia (Poland) but he was never a citizen. And that was drilled into them very early, lest they make that mistake and insist on rights they didn't have. And get their village burned to the ground. There is no way a Jew from the Pale makes that mistake. No more than anyone would mistake the Warsaw Ghetto for a typical Polish apartment block, or the Klan as a group of simple Christian missionaries. He knew he had no consulate. So he either said it because he was delusional, or he said it to try and get a break.

He wouldn't rely on the Russian Consulate then anymore that I would now.

[Paddy]

Hi Rob, Unfortunately it was not Aaron. There was mention of the Abrahams brothers, I believe one was Nathanial. I will try and find it.....Pat

[Errata]

Whoa.. that's pretty interesting.

Fieldgate Street is right in the right place. Important to remember that Aaron might have gone by the name Abrahams also. I, likewise, have not heard of the Bel Club? Anyone have any clue about this type of club, said to be a disgrace to the neighborhood, and "half the crime originated in them."?

I am a bit confused about what this is saying actually. The girls went in to "demand a man named Abrahams whom it was alleged had seduced a Christian girl." --- what does that mean?

RH

It means some guy name Abrahams knocked up his Christian girlfriend, and her parents had no idea she was dating, much less sleeping with a Jew. The girls were calling him out for confession and identification. It's possible they did it so that he could be married to this girl, but more likely to be beaten.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Pat. if you get the time, please share more details. Some of the men may be familiar with me as once upon a time I made a study of the anarchists/socialists of that time and area, and plan to resume those researches one day. There was a lot of interesting activity occurring on Mile End at that time, such as Le Grand, Aarons, and the vigilance committee at number 74, the anarchists, and a threatening man walking a (presumably unmuzzled) dog.

Errata,

I have to agree with most of your post in reply to me. Our researches of socialists/anarchists of that period seem to have led us to very different conclusions.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Paddy]

Also....I seem to remember a policeman tried to officiate and got attacked. And one person (not sure if it was the Policeman) got chased and windows were broken....
Right now I am really going to have to find it...
It wasn't AK but it did paint an interesting picture of the goings on at that time...

Pat