Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Sally I did not suggest that Swanson was a liar just because I am sceptical about the whole seaside home id.
I suspect that the whole thing was a long after the event muddled up and Poorly remembered version of sadler's Id. That fits with all the other garbled and slightly inaccurate memories, and indeed denials that the case was solved by other officers, which combine to indicate that Aaron was not in fact a number 1 suspect so far as the police on the ground were concerned, and he was just the favoured suspect of some desk bound senior officers with their own preconceived and slightly arrogant notions.

What's garbled about: "there was a successful ID, murderer would have hanged, Kosminski was his name, witness refused to give evidence, City CID watched him day and night, he died in the asylum shortly after".

There is absolutely nothing garbled about that.

It only becomes 'garbled' when people throw in comments like your Sadler one, which surely is the polar opposite of the Kosminski ID, or when people conclude it must have been Aaron, or when people conclude that The Seaside Home is unrealistic etc.

Swanson's statement is unwavering and anything but garbled.

[Sally]

Hi Ed

As FM says, it doesn't look that garbled, really. It was a matter of years, not centuries. The way some are talking about the mixed up memories of senior police officials, you'd think they all had dementia.

Again - we cannot really just dismiss the evidence regarding Kosminski as either a fit up based purely on prejudice; nor the confused ramblings of old men just because we prefer another suspect

We don't know the basis for that belief, true, but we should be able to say on the evidence that Kosminski was an important suspect; believed by senior police officials to have been the Ripper.

Until we know why thought that, he has to remain as a viable suspect in my view.

[miakaal4]

Hi Sally,
How viable? Compared to...?

[Phil H]

His brother had to go to court to explain why Aaron gave an 'incorrect' name and address. This suggests to me that Aaron was 'simple' and needed his brother to speak for him.

Or that he was not good with people, tended to be inflexible and rather eccentric - and that thus not defending his position well.

I don't think it suggests he was "simple" at all - just that he was unworldly perhaps. It also suggests a supportive and loyal family who understood Aaron family member.

Phil H

[robhouse]

His brother had to go to court to explain why Aaron gave an 'incorrect' name and address. This suggests to me that Aaron was 'simple' and needed his brother to speak for him.
The mastabation and that he became uncontrollable so far as his family were concerned also is suggestive of someone with a low mental age - low iq.
There are pointers hat his mental Illness went way beyond just schizophrenia.
Which is why it was ridiculous to claim that I suggested schizophrenics had low iqs.

I don't think any of this is accurate. First (as Phil suggests) I think it is entirely normal that a family member would go to court to testify on his brother's behalf. You mention masturbation... ok, look at other serial killers, Dahmer for example, who masturbated compulsively and in front of people. Was he "slow"?

You say "he became uncontrollable so far as his family were concerned." Where are you getting that from? There is no evidence that he "became uncontrollable".

There are no "pointers" that his mental illness went "way beyond" schizophrenia. His documentation is entirely consistent with schizophrenia. He may have also had "depression" or something like that, but there is absolutely no indication that he had a low IQ.

RH

[Lechmere]

From the brief reports we have the brother wasn't so much testifying as explaining something that Aaron would have been able to explain himself - if he was capable of doing so. Phil has suggested he wasn't capable.

[Lechmere]

Fleetwood
It was garbled as Aaron didn't die soon after, unless you think Swanson referred to some unidentified person.

[Lechmere]

Sally
The reality is that most people on here have a favoured suspect but that doesn't invalidate comments they make.
Some people adopt the 'cunning plan' of pretending not to have a suspect all the more convincingly to argue for their suspect - some even pop back up on here with a different name after being banned for over aggressively arguing for a particular suspect and then pretend not to have a suspect but then spend their time patrolling these boards attacking certain other suspects and so on and so on.
So give it a rest.

[Phil H]

From the brief reports we have the brother wasn't so much testifying as explaining something that Aaron would have been able to explain himself - if he was capable of doing so. Phil has suggested he wasn't capable.

I didn't say that at all, or infer it, Lechmere.. You deliberately distort meanings to your own ends.

No more than an unworldly vicar trying to explain something to a court might come across rather strangely, he might need an intercessor. That does not imply that the vicar is incapable, simply unused to the legal process.

if Aaron Kosminski was an eloquent man, but a fervent orthodox Jew (even beyond that) - unbending (one might say almost unbalanced except that it might be misinterpreted) in his religious views, he might need the aid of a brother better versed in gentile ways. That is ALL I was saying.

Phil H

[Phil H]

It was garbled as Aaron didn't die soon after, unless you think Swanson referred to some unidentified person.

"Garbled" is an odd word to use - it means that something is confused or badly explained.

SirRA and DSS appear to have been MISTAKEN or misinformed, but set out their understanding clearly and simply. That is NOT garbled.

I believe that they sincerely believed what they had been told and did not think to question it (why should they). Things had moved on, their responsibilities demanded focus and the issues had changed. The information about Kosminski's reported death might have been of passing interest and mentally noted, but I doubt when it came it was either a surprise or of more than passing concern to either Anderson or Swanson - why should it by that time?

I can imagine an exchange in passing, perhaps in the margins of a meeting on a wholly different subject or case: "You remember that man kosminski we identified as the whitechapel killer?" "Yes, what of him?" "I was told the other day that he's died in Colney Hatch." "Oh really. Well that's the end of that then!"

They may have been misinformed, but both men set down the facts as they knew them clearly.

Phil H

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood
It was garbled as Aaron didn't die soon after, unless you think Swanson referred to some unidentified person.

But then, you're assuming it was Aaron.

[Wickerman]

Jon,
A red herring to cover what?.Or do you mean the whole latter published memoirs and marginella concerning Kosminski to be a red herring.Certainly nothing,as this thread demonstrates,gives a clear and concise account that allows more than a posibility or presumption to be aired,and it shouldn't be like that,but where does the blame start?

Harry.

A Red-herring with respect to Kosminski actually having killed anyone, never mind being Jack the Ripper.

Without knowing why the police suspected him, under what circumstances, and connected with which murder, we are holding an empty bag.
Undoubtedly the ID was intended to confirm a "circumstantial" suspicion on behalf of the police, but what was it?
It is surprising to me that there is not even a hint of what it could have been.

Look at it this way, if the police had information from a third party (family/neighbours?), all rumor's, "he-said, she-said" type evidence, then the police set up an I.D. and bring in a witness with the full expectations of getting Kozminski to confess, because, they actually have nothing with which to connect him to any of the crimes, but he does not confess.
Then all this suspicion is based on heresay evidence - the rumor's, and in consequence, with a failed ID, the police have nothing.

On the other hand, the police could have been told about him hoarding bits of flesh/tissue in his room, that he was always absent from home on the nights in question, that on those particular nights he came in bloody and spent time cleaning his clothes or even to be seen burning some clothes.
As it stands we know of no reason for the ID to be initiated in the first place.

Their whole case may predicate on a rumor, and if the rumor was wrong to start with then Kozminski was innocent all along.
This seems to be close to the situation we have with Anderson & Swanson.

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

Phil
But Aaron Kosminsky died after Anderson.
You imply that Swanson and Anderson were mistakenly told that the person who they were convinced was Jack the Ripper had died in Colney Hatch or Leavesden long before he actually had. I would suggest that if they genuinely thought that Aaron Kosminsky was Jack the Ripper then they would surely have been kept accurately informed about him and would accurately recall his circumstances.
Anderson and Swanson were both somewhat obsessed by their involvement in the Ripper case for understandable reasons.

On the topic of masturbation...
Dahmer graduated from being essentially a flasher to being a serial killer.
That is quite different from the uninhibited and inappropriate sexual behaviour (such as public masturbation) common with ‘simple’ people, that is people with severe learning difficulties, people with a low mental age.
The references to Kosminsky’s masturbation are not in connection with ‘flashing’.
Furthermore I think the dog case newspaper reports are consistent with a simple person, as are the medical records – where he has difficulty expressing himself.
Such people also often get out of hand within their own family – Kosminsky attacked his sister.

And if the Kosminsky suspect wasn't Aaron it was someone who was strangely similar to him!

I actually think that Kosminsky – in the shape of Aaron Kosminsky is one of the better suspects.
I agree that Swanson wrote the marginalia. I think the Kosminsky referred to is Aaron.
But in the final analysis if he was a genuine contender at the time and not an almost desperate late-in-the-day-face-saving culprit then Swanson, Anderson and Macnaghten would have been more accurate and less garbled.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I would suggest that if they genuinely thought that Aaron Kosminsky was Jack the Ripper then they would surely have been kept accurately informed about him and would accurately recall his circumstances.

No.

You certainly can suggest that they would have kept tabs on him. That is more than reasonable.

But, in terms of being accurately informed - they couldn't control that - this was down to other people being dilligent.

There is always the chance that the records went haywire somewhere along the line and when they enquired they were told: "not here, must be dead" - when actually he was still residing there.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Harry.

Their whole case may predicate on a rumor, and if the rumor was wrong to start with then Kozminski was innocent all along.
This seems to be close to the situation we have with Anderson & Swanson.

Regards, Jon S.

I think you have a point, Jon, in that in the event the family were prepared to go to the police with information, then why didn't they testify? what would be the point in going to the police in the first place and not testifying thereafter? Logically, although I've argued otherwise previously, seems it wasn't them.

But, all of this is musings about exactly what they had and doesn't change the fact that we have a statement from the police saying an ID took place and he was positively identified.

It seems a simple thing to say but it needs repeating: Swanon's notes are fine; it's our knowledge of the case that leaves a lot to be desired.