Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Simon.

I think we are testing possibilities here. Without being too blunt Swanson writing "sent by us" could mean the police (SY?) organized/initiated even orchestrated the move, but apart from providing an escort, did not actually handle the patient themselves.

Regards, Jon S.

Sent by us with difficulty tells the full story.

Orchestrated by the police, but with problems.

If the family have to tie his hands to walk him down the street, and it's a safe bet that they didn't mention they were dropping him off at the asylum, then I doubt he's going quietly with the police.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

Agreed. A perfectly fair argument.

If I depute you to get X to the Seaside Home, I can claim to have "sent" X and you to have "taken" X.

But I still don't believe a word of it.

Regards,

Simon

[Jonathan H]

A previous poster made the remark about attempt to discredit 'Kosminski' in favour of other suspects, as if this is somehow new?

Instead it is exactly what Macnaghten, rightly or wrongly, did with his 1913 comments, his memoirs, and via Griffiths and Sims (pointedly in 1910) towards Anderson and his Polish Jew suspect from 1898 through to 1917.

[Bridewell]

Hands Tied

I suspect it does for two reasons at least:

1) The family took him to the asylum with his hands tied behind his back. I'd be slightly disappointed in the event my family tied me up and walked me down to the local asylum for no more than going about my normal day-to-day business. Clearly, force was a necessary tool to walk this fella down the street and his family had reached a point where there weren't many other options - suggests that he was an usually difficult customer.

Hi FM,

Having his hands tied behind his back isn't necessarily indicative of violence. Kosminski is not recorded anywhere as violent that I'm aware of. He is said to have been, when "going about his normal day-to-day business", a compulsive and public masturbator - to my mind a much more likely reason. If the reason had been violence I would expect his feet to have been pinioned also, and there is nothing to suggest that this was done.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Wickerman]

If the family have to tie his hands to walk him down the street, and it's a safe bet that they didn't mention they were dropping him off at the asylum, then I doubt he's going quietly with the police.

Agreed, but the family did not have access to drugs to sedate him. In a patient transfer from one institution to another, if the patient is physically violent he could have been sedated.
So the "with difficulty" may have been of a bureaucratic nature.

Swanson was not being too clear in his footnotes, he appears to have been trying to say more than he was prepared to admit to. Its what we might call being cagey.

Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FM,

Having his hands tied behind his back isn't necessarily indicative of violence. Kosminski is not recorded anywhere as violent that I'm aware of. He is said to have been, when "going about his normal day-to-day business", a compulsive and public masturbator - to my mind a much more likely reason. If the reason had been violence I would expect his feet to have been pinioned also, and there is nothing to suggest that this was done.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hello Bridewell,

Would be a struggle to get him down the street in the event his legs were tied.

In order to necessitate his hands being tied, I think it's fair to say that he was difficult - clearly he needed restraining, and usually people who don't need restraining aren't restrained.

What I would say is that we can't be sure of the scale of violence and the reason.

Through work, I've spent time among people who have never killed anyone, and I'd imagine never would, but they are extremely difficult. These people don't think in line with what we consider to be normal thinking. A slight change to their surroundings can lead to them smashing the place up - not because they're killers, but because they can't handle the slightest upheaval to their existence. A mere change in the amount of people in their vicinity can lead to a violent reaction.

So, I think its fair to say that Kosminski was violent and difficult to lead. What we don't know is exactly what he was suffering from, and whether or not his problem was misconstrued by the authorities.

[Cogidubnus]

Having his hands tied behind his back isn't necessarily indicative of violence. Kosminski is not recorded anywhere as violent that I'm aware of. He is said to have been, when "going about his normal day-to-day business", a compulsive and public masturbator - to my mind a much more likely reason. If the reason had been violence I would expect his feet to have been pinioned also, and there is nothing to suggest that this was done.

Hi Colin

I think it's fair to say that Kosminski's behaviour before and after permanent incarceration might be totally different.

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

So, I think its fair to say that Kosminski was violent and difficult to lead. What we don't know is exactly what he was suffering from, and whether or not his problem was misconstrued by the authorities.

The most critical detail that we do not know is, what was he like in 1888?

The fact his condition worsened in the 1890's amounts to nothing with respect to his candidacy as a serial killer in 1888.

Unless anything surfaces concerning his condition at the time of the murders everything so far written about him as regards being a suspect 'could' be another red herring. He 'could' be perfectly innocent.

Regards, Jon S.

[robhouse]

He is said to have been, when "going about his normal day-to-day business", a compulsive and public masturbator...

Not sure where you get this quote from...

RH

[harry]

Jon,
A red herring to cover what?.Or do you mean the whole latter published memoirs and marginella concerning Kosminski to be a red herring.Certainly nothing,as this thread demonstrates,gives a clear and concise account that allows more than a posibility or presumption to be aired,and it shouldn't be like that,but where does the blame start?

[Fleetwood Mac]

The most critical detail that we do not know is, what was he like in 1888?

The fact his condition worsened in the 1890's amounts to nothing with respect to his candidacy as a serial killer in 1888.

Unless anything surfaces concerning his condition at the time of the murders everything so far written about him as regards being a suspect 'could' be another red herring. He 'could' be perfectly innocent.

Regards, Jon S.

Also, Jon, I'd imagine that people who we consider to have severe learning difficulties today, would have been lumped into the insane category in those days.

But, if we can be sure that this fella was picking food out of gutters as a result of paranoid delusions, then he certainly has a mental problem associated with fear and possibly resulting in violent reactions.

He certainly could be innocent.

For me, his mental condition isn't a significant factor in his status as a suspect: it's the ID.

[Phil H]

We do know something of Araon Kosminski's mental state and competence, given the Court case in 1889. he could clearly then express himself, and take a position - in regard to his name and payment of the fine.

Judge that as you will, but it IS evidence.

Phil H

[miakaal4]

He gets nicked for having a dog with no muzzle. No knives, no screaming and shouting, no promises to get revenge, just the statement that the mutt wasn't his.

[Lechmere]

His brother had to go to court to explain why Aaron gave an 'incorrect' name and address. This suggests to me that Aaron was 'simple' and needed his brother to speak for him.
The mastabation and that he became uncontrollable so far as his family were concerned also is suggestive of someone with a low mental age - low iq.
There are pointers hat his mental Illness went way beyond just schizophrenia.
Which is why it was ridiculous to claim that I suggested schizophrenics had low iqs.

[Lechmere]

Sally I did not suggest that Swanson was a liar just because I am sceptical about the whole seaside home id.
I suspect that the whole thing was a long after the event muddled up and Poorly remembered version of sadler's Id. That fits with all the other garbled and slightly inaccurate memories, and indeed denials that the case was solved by other officers, which combine to indicate that Aaron was not in fact a number 1 suspect so far as the police on the ground were concerned, and he was just the favoured suspect of some desk bound senior officers with their own preconceived and slightly arrogant notions.