Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Sally]

Ed -

Sally - Was kosminsky hung or even arrested? Did the seaside home Id take place? If do where, when and by which means.

Are you suggesting that Swanson lied, Ed? To what end? Perhaps he was making notes for a novel?

If you can answer these then you are indeed an expert researcher.
If not then you are merely another inaccurate poster.

Don't see how that follows, really. Why inaccurate? What reason do we have to doubt Swanson? Well, I know you'd like to, because it gets in the way of your pet suspect - but you know, even accepting that senior police officials had Kosminski down as their top suspect doesn't prove that he was a murderer. It only demonstrates that they thought he was. The question is, why?

Can you see the difference between a couple of senior policemen sitting in their leather armchairs late at night with a tumbler of whiskey and a fat cigar pontificating to each other about the most likely suspect that had (somehow - who knows how now) come to their attention, a suspect that confirms their prejudices, and a full blown evidence based trial at the old bailey?

Obviously I can, Ed. But I'm afraid that your explanation is pure conjecture. You have no idea how, or why, Kosminski was identified as a suspect. We'd all like to know the answer to that of course - dismissing that identification out of hand is a little bit disingenuous. The 'evidence based trial' was apparently not possible because the mystery Jewish witness wouldn't formally identify Kosminski. That strongly suggests that he had, in fact, been witnessed in connection with one of the murders.

As for kosminsky's madness - while he was not necessarily a drooler - it is given as his 'motivation' for being the killer. It is presented as the card that declares his potential for guilt. You can't have it both ways and say 'oh no he wasn't that mad' when it is realised that the crimes couldn't realistically have been committed by a madman

Define 'Madman'.

[DGB]

>>>What makes you think Aaron kosminsky didn't have a low iq? I suspect he did.

OK, again... what do you base this on? Are you suggesting that people with schizophrenia have low IQs? I think some people would find that offensive frankly.

RH

I would add that I wasn't saying that Aaron Kosminski didn't have a low IQ or a high IQ, I just doubt - from what we know (the dog case for example) - that his IQ was so low that he couldn't do simple housework and had the mental age of a young child, which would be required for him to be categorised as an imbecile.

[robhouse]

To end the debate here, I apologise to all for calling Kosminski an imbecile. From now on I shall refer to him as a man who on occasion behaved oddly.

I don't particular care for you to apologize. I'd rather you were actually informed about something before you decided to post about it.

There is nothing there, apart from some enigmatic remarks made by people whose agenda at the time is unknown.

That's one of the funniest ways I have yet seen this put. The anti-Andersonites would be proud.

I feel that S. M. and Sir R were memebrs of the "Must have been" High School. It "must have been" a foreigner, a Jew, a madman.

I certainly do not concede that the police were wearing blinders to the effect that they were singly focused on looking at Jewish suspects. Although, given the demographics of the area, it is not unusual that they would be looking at Jewish suspects. The geographic distribution of the murder sites, in fact, corresponds quite closely to an area of the East End that was referred to as London's "Jewish shtetl". The area where the murders occurred was like a Jewish oasis (in blue) amidst a much larger geographic area that was non-Jewish (red). In short, I don't think it is an outrageous thing to suggest, or for the police to have pondered at the time that the Ripper may have been Jewish.

The following map is from 1899, but I think it is probably similar to the make up in 1888 (the percentages are probably lower).

RH

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"Your post was concerned with Lechmere, and with bolstering your position, as usual.
My original post was not even addressed to you; yet you saw fit to seize an opportunity to bring up your pet suspect. Any excuse, eh?"

Sally, don´t be stupid if you don´t have to. If antagonsim is all you have to offer (and I have seen nothing else so far), then try Mongolian oilwrestling or something like that instead..

You still don´t get what I am saying, do you? "Cross" (not Lechmere) was used as an example to point to why I challenge the idea that the police worked along intelligible guidelines only. So was Issenschmidt.

I am smack, bang on topic. But you prefer to quibble, quibble, quibble ...

I even went as far as to stick my chin out and say that it may be counterproductive to believe that being a contemporary suspect was something that should keep these men in front of the race today.

But do you address this? Oh, no - babble on about anything else instead. Don´t address the issue, instead disrupt as much as you can - there´s a good girl!

You really haven´t got a clue, do you?

Anybody who want to pick up the thread and discuss Kosminski and whether the police used good sense only when hunting the Ripper? Or if having been a suspect bacik in 1888 possibly should detract from being so today? It would be infinitely more intersting to discuss that than ... I haven´t even got a word for it

The best,
Fisherman

[miakaal4]

Hi RH,
Okay whatever, I have seen him referred to as an imbecile, and that he was sent to an asylum for imbeciles, you say he wasn't an imbecile, and then advise me to check the facts. Okay I shall but in the meantime I cannot accept your point, because it too is subjective. Fair enough?
Would you mind explaining why someone so far from the smelly streets as Anderson would know more than any other copper?
Do you have any evidence that Kosminski was violent toward women, or hated them? And we both know, that who does or does not live in the murder site area is irrelevant.

[Errata]

So, there is this guy here in town. I call him Mr. Bojangles. I don't know if he is homeless, but I know he wanders the streets singing and clapping and doing a little dance. He's completely harmless. I see him maybe once a year at various road intersections, for the past 15 years or so. There's 2 and a half million people in this city, more than a hundred square miles. But I notice this guy, because frankly, he sticks out. Now if this guy were to ever approach me in a dark alley in the middle of the night, I would be on my guard. I don't think he's dangerous, but wha the hell is he doing in an alley in the middle of the night?

That's why I don't think Kosminski is viable. Whitechapel is smaller, no one would have thought that Kos was harmless, and we remember people who stick out. I think he was "too crazy" to be the Ripper. Too visible, too noticeable, too alarming.

[Sally]

Sally, don´t be stupid if you don´t have to. If antagonsim is all you have to offer (and I have seen nothing else so far), then try Mongolian oilwrestling or something like that instead..

Goodbye Fisherman.

Have a nice day, now, won't you?

[DGB]

So, there is this guy here in town. I call him Mr. Bojangles. I don't know if he is homeless, but I know he wanders the streets singing and clapping and doing a little dance. He's completely harmless. I see him maybe once a year at various road intersections, for the past 15 years or so. There's 2 and a half million people in this city, more than a hundred square miles. But I notice this guy, because frankly, he sticks out. Now if this guy were to ever approach me in a dark alley in the middle of the night, I would be on my guard. I don't think he's dangerous, but wha the hell is he doing in an alley in the middle of the night?

That's why I don't think Kosminski is viable. Whitechapel is smaller, no one would have thought that Kos was harmless, and we remember people who stick out. I think he was "too crazy" to be the Ripper. Too visible, too noticeable, too alarming.

Perhaps this is the case. But equally you cannot speak for what an alcoholic prostitute, who needs money for booze or a bed might do. It might be that her desperation outweighed the alarm bells which - as you say - could have been ringing.

That's also not to say that Kosminski's descent did not begin after the murders.

[robhouse]

Hi RH,
Okay whatever, I have seen him referred to as an imbecile, and that he was sent to an asylum for imbeciles, you say he wasn't an imbecile, and then advise me to check the facts. Okay I shall but in the meantime I cannot accept your point, because it too is subjective. Fair enough?
Would you mind explaining why someone so far from the smelly streets as Anderson would know more than any other copper?
Do you have any evidence that Kosminski was violent toward women, or hated them? And we both know, that who does or does not live in the murder site area is irrelevant.

Miakaal,

I, too, have seen him referred to as an imbecile... countless times. Like here for example, where it says "Is this then our Jack the Ripper? Probably not. More likely the harmless imbecile he is documented to be." (http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/s...minski_15.html) I don't know if you are aware that I have written a book on Aaron Kozminski (http://www.amazon.com/Ripper-Scotlan...ack+the+ripper)

You are in good company, because several notable Ripper authors have also assumed that Kozminski was an imbecile, because he was admitted to an imbecile asylum. However, this assumption is incorrect.

Here is an excerpt from my talk at York:

"In the Victorian era, the term "imbecile" was a strictly defined legal term for a particular classification of "insanity"—what we would today refer to as a mentally retarded person. The fact is, despite being nominally an Imbecile's asylum, Leavesden accepted all classes of insane patients. The following is a quote from a book called "Insanity Amongst the Jews," by Cecil F. Beadles, a doctor at Colney Hatch in the 1890s, who in fact made several notes on Kozminski's mental state. "Although Leavesden, Caterham and Darenth are so-called Imbecile asylums," he wrote, "yet the majority of the inmates therein are not affected with congenital or infantile insanity. Most, as is well known, are the subjects of acquired insanity whose condition has passed into terminal dementia."

In other words, the main criteria for admission to Leavesden was that a patient be deemed incurable; Colney Hatch Asylum, by comparison, was for treating mental illnesses that were thought to be curable. Quite simply, Aaron Kozminski was transferred to Leavesden because his schizophrenia was deteriorating and uncurable.

The fact that Aaron Kozminski was never classified as an imbecile is supported by the documentary evidence. (fig) He was initially classified by Dr. Houchin as a "person of unsound mind," another legally defined category of insanity, roughly synonymous with "lunatic." Later, both at Colney Hatch and Leavesden Asylums, Aaron was classified as a lunatic, which corresponds with the diagnosis of schizophrenia."

I am sure I will have to post on this again, as I am fighting an uphill battle against "the internet," according to which, Kozminski is a "drooling imbecile."

RH

[Fleetwood Mac]

This is contemporary reporting, this appears to be the true state of affairs in the fall of 1888.

Regards, Jon S.

Anderson pretty much says as much in his book, The Lighter Side....

[Fleetwood Mac]

I think The police, or certain policemen, came to suspect kosminsky because he fitted their preconceived notions of who the culprit would be.
A single mad poor Jew.

I doubt it.

Anderson had his views, not necessarily borne out of racism, but out of the belief that someone must have known the killer, and therefore someone was protecting him; and in his experience the likelihood was 'the Jews'.

From there, something happened to have brought Kosminski to the attention of the police; something beyond 'poor, mad Jew'. I imagine the East End was teeming with unstable characters, both Gentile and Jew, so some event of significant interest occured in order for Kosminski to stand out from the rest.

In my mind, the most likely answer is his family.

After all, it was his family that took him to the asylum 'a short time after'. So, unless they've had a sudden change of mind, they clearly wanted rid of him a short time before. Perhaps their collective conscience got the better of them and they advised the police on what they knew from 1888 and possibly beyond. So, the police wheeled out their key witness and he/she wouldn't give evidence, and it follows maybe the family were left with only one option - have him locked up as a lunatic.

Edited to add:

And, as the idea of family/friends hiding Jack was a cornerstone of Anderson's diagnosis, and according to Anderson it was proven correct on every count, then it's reasonable to conclude that Anderson had information to the effect that the family did indeed know that Kosminski was Jack; which supports the idea that it was his family who brought Kosminski to the attention of the police.

[miakaal4]

RH, Point taken. I have in fact been looking him up myself in the last hour or so. I did not know you had written a book on the man, no.
I agree that hearing voices or following commands from a dominant personality is hardly imbecilic. Tortured would be a better word perhaps.
I have also read of Andersons behaviour during the Parnell debacal 1887, where he indulged in the idea that he had told, (published) a little but knew much more. He admitted he enjoyed the furore that followed, as it made him feel "10 years younger". (A/Z JtR) he was a man who liked to keep secrets or liked people to think he knew more than they did. For me this is more evidence for suspicion that his revelation was something other than true.
His religeous beliefs would not make him a supporter of Jews, the opposite in fact. Any thoughts?

[Phil H]

To repeat something I said in an earlier post.

Kosminski appeared in a City court in 1889 over the dog-walking incident in Aldgate - he appears then to have been able to conduct his own affairs, even to have been somewhat obstreperous.

is it possible that someone (maybe a City policeman and not on duty) had seen a man around Mitre Square (also City territory) on the night of Eddowes murder. He then sees Kosminski in court some months later and reports the fact to his superiors.

That would account for a witness not being recorded as appearing at the inquest and would give us another option for the witness referred to by Anderson and Swanson.

We know from Harry Cox's memoirs that CITY police staked out a suspect and a house in a primarily Jewish area/street. this confirms what Sir RA and DSS say - albeit outside normal rules and procedures.

We know that Robert Sagar, another CITY policeman, and himself involved with a City suspect - had connections in Brighton. Was that a reason why the ID took place in the Seaside Home there? (NOTE: I am not suggesting Sagar was the witness).

There seem a lot of interesting City connections here, with someone not unlike Kosminski. I can see the stitch marks but not quite pull it together.

What do others think?

Phil H

[miakaal4]

Hi FMac,
The reasoning behind the notion "it must be a Jew because they would hide him" sits on the belief that the killer lived within a very small area. And that is weak indeed!

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi FMac,
The reasoning behind the notion "it must be a Jew because they would hide him" sits on the belief that the killer lived within a very small area. And that is weak indeed!

Hi M,

I wouldn't call it weak as there was a decent chance he lived in the area. But, would agree that I wouldn't have been putting all of my eggs in that basket.

According to Anderson, though, he was proven to have been correct in his assumptions.

When deriding Anderson's claim regarding his 'Jew' theory, please don't forget that he adds some meat to the bones by saying that the culprit matched the theory.