Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Fisherman]

On the notion that what Anderson and Swanson purportedly had on Kosminski was somehow kept from Macnaghten, I think that the Memoranda, saying about Kosminski that "There were many circumstances connected with this man which made him a strong 'suspect'" seems to be pointing at Macnaghten having shared in the information.

My own personal belief is that these "circumstances" were all psychological traits and strange habits, box-tickers for a police force looking for what one paper described as half man, half beast.

The be(a)st,
Fisherman

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/h-division-personnel.html

courtesy of Simon Wood. (thank you Simon)


1 Superintendent
1 Chief Inspector
11 1st class Inspectors
14 2nd class Inspectors
2 Sub Inspectors
and on CID - 1 Local Inspector

including:-

Ch. Inspr. Frederick G. Abberline

Superintendent Thomas Arnold
Chief Inspector John West
Local Inspector Edmund Reid
Divisional Inspector Ernest Ellisdon
Inspector Walter Beck
Inspector Joseph Chandler
Inspector Charles Pinhorn (J. Pinhorn—Times Dec 10th 1889)
Inspector Nairn (Scotland Yard)
H DIVISION PLAIN CLOTHES DUTY - as from October 1st 1888-Divisional Inspector Pimley

and possibly..

Inspector Dixon/Dickson
Inspector A. Thresher
Inspector Babbington
Inspector Holland
Inspector Wildey
Inspector Quinn
Inspector Pride
Inspector Bullock
Inspector Rowland
Inspector Flannigan
Inspector W. Causby
Detective Cumner

PLUS

Insp. Walter Andrews
DC Walter Dew
DS George Godley
Insp Helson
John Littlechild
James Monro
Major Henry Smith
Insp John Spratling
Ch Constable Adolphus Williamson

Guess what all these people had in common? (Rank more or less from Inspector upwards)


They all didn't either know or weren't told about Kosminski, or if they did or were, they never spoke of it. Those who spoke out against the Polish Jew theory are known in this list.

Amazing isn' it?

Only three men know of "Kosminski".. Macnagthen, Anderson and Swanson. Anderson didnt' name him, note. Swanson may be naming Anderson's Polish Jew, but not his own suspect as he adamantly refused to reveal a name to his family, yet calmly jotted down the name Kosminski when commenting on Anderson's Polish Jew story. Macnagthen dismissed Kosminski in preference to Druitt. So the only TWO people that MAY have known about the Kosminski suspect, by name, are Swanson and Anderson. Anderson as said didnt name his suspect.

And all those other people, above, were kept in the dark about it.

EVEN John Littlechild.. who worked in Special Branch, explicitly states that the suspect was a Dr T.. Tumblety. Kosminski is not even in his horse race....and thats Special Branch ladies and gents. Even Littlechild didn't know about Kosminski it seems.

It is not comprehensible, with all these people either dismissing the Polish Jew Story, ignoring it, naming another suspect, or having been told to keep quiet about it, that only 2...TWO policemen .. were seemingly in the know.

So why was Anderson's story completely looked over and fell like a damp squid in 1910?

There can only be one conclusion.

The weight of official opinion, from differing departments, either ignored, pooh pooh it or rubbished it. The Press didn't rate it m,uch either.. youknow, Anderson names Ripper suspect at last!.. no headline..it all went as quiet as the grave...and know it is obvious why.

It simply isn't true.

best wishes

Phil

[robhouse]

On the notion that what Anderson and Swanson purportedly had on Kosminski was somehow kept from Macnaghten, I think that the Memoranda, saying about Kosminski that "There were many circumstances connected with this man which made him a strong 'suspect'" seems to be pointing at Macnaghten having shared in the information.

My own personal belief is that these "circumstances" were all psychological traits and strange habits, box-tickers for a police force looking for what one paper described as half man, half beast.

The be(a)st,
Fisherman

And what, if anything, do you base this belief on? How do you presume to know what evidence the police that connected Kozminski with the murders? This statement reveals your strong prejudice on the matter, as it is clear that you base such a statement on nothing at all.

RH

[robhouse]

Amazing isn' it?

Only three men know of "Kosminski".. Macnagthen, Anderson and Swanson.

I have posted this before and it received little comment. But in my opinion, this note in the Swanson marginalia (which is rarely commented on) is very interesting. Swanson wrote "known to Scotland Yard head officers of CID" underlining "head" twice. Why underline it twice?

It has generally been assumed that this refers to the previous sentence about the Jack the Ripper letter --- which I think is almost certainly an incorrect assumption.

Note that in the previous paragraph, Anderson writes "Scotland Yard can boast that not even the subordinate officers of the department will tell tales out of school, and it would ill become me to violate the unwritten rule of the service." [This clearly implies that Anderson means it would "violate the unwritten rule of the service" to reveal the name of the killer.

Swanson highlighted this entire sentence with a vertical line to the left, and by underlining the last half of the sentence. In my opinion, it is clear that Swanson's marginalia "known to Scotland Yard head officers of CID" refers to this sentence... not to the following sentence. The reason is that the underlining of "head" (twice) refers to Anderson's statement about "subordinate officers of the department." Swanson was, in other words saying, that subordinate officers did not know about Kozminski, but only that the head officers of CID knew about him.

That is my opinion.

RH

[Phil H]

Speculation

I have been giving some thought to this. Without saying I believe what follows and in an attempt to reconcile M abnd Sir AS and DSS, how about this:

Speculation

An off duty CITY policeman (Robert Sagar) sees a man near Mitre Square on 30/9 1888.

Some months later he sees the same man in a CITY court in 1889 and puts a name to him - Aaron Kosminski. (Sagar was already suspicious of this man.)

Sagar rarely works in uniform and is interested in criminology. He goes either to his own superiors or directly to Scotland Yard giving them a name.

Kosminski then becomes a suspect putting house-to-house info together with Sagar's information.

Sagar has a connection with Brighton (he later retires there). Hence a confrontation in the Seaside Home there. Kosminski's reaction to Sagar confirms SY's view of the suspect.

Anderson asks Sagar to stake out the Kosminski home - he follows Aaron Kosminski and either stops him in the immediate prelude to a murder or watches him (Mckenzie?). After that he is put away.

If not Sagar insert "AN Other City cop".

Could Sagar (name doesn't sound English) have been of Jewish descent?

This wopuld bring together Sagar's suspect, Brighton as location for ID, City watch on Kosminski home and other elements, reconciling MM and Sir RA/DSS memoirs.

But (at this stage) it is pure speculation offered for discussion only.

Phil H

[Sally]

Phil - I have a feeling that Sagar was from Lancashire originally.

[miakaal4]

just one thing...

According to young mister Schwartz, he saw this little drama at about 12.45 ish.
Then at 01.00 ish Diemshutz turns up and finds the dead Liz. Now we all know that to cut a throat will not take a determined attacker very long. You sit and stare at the wall for 15 minutes and think how many slices of toast you could have sliced. (Sorry, terrible example). My point is that Schwartz could have indeed seen Kosminski attack Liz Stride, and could have also seen the man, with the pipe, just before the latter intervened and Kosminski ran home. Pipe man helps liz up then returns to building. Still a possible long ten minutes before Liz is killed. Anyone could have shown up and done the deed. Perhaps that is what all the reluctance was about when it came to prosecuting? It would be very easy for someone not on the scene, to make the assumption that Kosminski (if it was him) attacking Stride at 12.45 then went on to kill her, with hindsight wouldn't it? During the vital minutes of the actual attack, there were NO witnesses. That cannot be ignored. cheers, Miakaal4

[Monty]

Sagar was a Lincolnshire man Sally....I think.

Monty

[Chris]

Could Sagar (name doesn't sound English) have been of Jewish descent?

I think Sagar does sometimes occur as a Jewish surname, but Robert Sagar wasn't Jewish - he came from a family which had lived in Simonstone, Lancashire, since at least the 16th century [Victoria County History, Lancashire, vol. 6, pp. 496-503].

[Chris]

Sagar was a Lincolnshire man Sally....I think.

Unfortunately the A to Z got that slightly wrong.

[Debra A]

Thank you kindly, Debra!

The best,
Fisherman

You're welcome.

[Fisherman]

Rob House:

"And what, if anything, do you base this belief on? How do you presume to know what evidence the police that connected Kozminski with the murders?"

Split that into two, Rob! Just as you say in sentence one, I BELIEVE something. In sentence two, you claim I presume to KNOW that self same something. Thatīs accusing me of something I have never said.

My whole point is that I DONīT know - and I BELIEVE that nobody else did either. Anderson and Swanson included.

"This statement reveals your strong prejudice on the matter, as it is clear that you base such a statement on nothing at all"

Actually no. It reveals that I am of the meaning that the police were prejudiced themselves, in their hunt for the Ripper, nothing else. I believe - BELIEVE - they put way too much stock in the perception that the killer was a madman, a maniac as Anderson put it, revelling in blood.

On adjacent threads, I have pointed out how phrenology was still very much an accepted "science" back in 1888 (and much longer than that; Elliot Ness used the "Bertillonage" when he hunted for the Kingsbury Run killer in the 1930:s), and I really think (or BELIEVE) that many factors that no police force would weigh in today, were commonly woven into the net with which the police tried to catch their killer back in ī88.

I have also exemplified with the Halse bit: he found two men in the street after the Eddows strike, found out that they could "account for themselves" - and let them go, no further questions asked. This should tell us that if you were a working man, roaming the streets at a point of time that tallied with your job, and at a place that seemed to tally with going to that job, then you were absolved of suspicions - a working man on his way to job would NOT be the Ripper.

Wrong type. Could account for himself. Brit, most probably.

Thigs like these need to be weighed in when we assess what - not who - the police looked for. And this is why I have no problems thinking that Issenschmidt, Kosminski, Puckridge, Piggott, Pizer, "The three medical students" etcetera were hot bids because they offered an answer to the question the police asked: "Any madmen out there? Preferably foreign?"

The rest of the Kosminski saga is fascinating, and there is every reason to search for the answers to the questions raised by the material left by Anderson, Swanson and Macnaghten. And I think only the fewest would be equally well equipped to do it as you are - I think your book is the best suspect book I have read so far, and I have learn a lot from it - and you.

But I still think you are on the wrong track, Rob. And I still think that Kosminskis psychological profile would be what lay behind the interest in him, perhaps coupled with tip-offs from different persons.

The best,
Fisherman

[Phil H]

Whether born in Lincolnshire (my country of origin) or Lancashire, doesn't mean he could not have had Jewish ancestry, does it, especially maternal ancestry.

Phil H

[Monty]

Unfortunately the A to Z got that slightly wrong.

To be fair Chris I'm going on memory. Can't recall where I saw it, maybe it was A-Z but I wouldn't like to point the finger there.

Suffice to say, I bow to your better knowledge mate.

Monty

[Chris]

Whether born in Lincolnshire (my country of origin) or Lancashire, doesn't mean he could not have had Jewish ancestry, does it, especially maternal ancestry.

No; in fact I would think most people would find some Jewish ancestry somewhere if they could trace back far enough.

But in Robert's case the surname Sagar wasn't a Jewish one.