Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[robhouse]

Yes, and MacNaghten, who placed his behind on the throne AFTER them, and who would have been privy to the material as such, including whatever it was Anderson and Swanson had on Kosminsky, was equally sure that HE had HIS man.

It is an assumption, on your part, that Macnaghten "would have been privy to the material as such." In my opinion, it is possible that Macnaghten was not privy to the information Anderson and Swanson had on Kozminski.

RH

[Sally]

Strange, is it not?

Not so much, Fisherman. The possible significance in Kosminski's connection to Berner St lies not in his proximity - the same could be said for hundreds of people at that time; but in the documented fact that he was considered a suspect by senior police officials at the time. It is because of that fact that his connection with Berner St becomes interesting. One follows the other, as night follows day.

Perhaps Lechmere ought to stay on Lechmere threads.

[Phil H]

Rob - he should have had access to the suspects file on kosminski - given his position.

Are you suggesting there was a confidential dossier on Kosminski known only to Sir RA and DSS? If so - what do you think happened to it after their retirement? Who else would have known? If it was an official file then someone must have taken charge of it.

Or do you believe that sir RA and DSS were conducting their own personal investigation into AK - off the record.

That surely would be highly improper and given away at once even by the neutered details provided by Sir RA in his published works.

Phil H

[robhouse]

Are you suggesting there was a confidential dossier on Kosminski known only to Sir RA and DSS?

That is basically what I am suggesting... as a possibility.

Rob

[Sally]

Might that make more sense of the curious identification at the 'Seaside Home' which doesn't seem to tally with routine police procedure?

But if they were conducting an unofficial investigation, for what possible reason? Why not an official investigation?

[mklhawley]

Hi Rob,

But I thought that Swanson kept it secret from everyone ACCEPT fellow Scotland Yard officials? ...or are you talking about Special Branch?

Sincerely,

Mike

[Phil H]

But MM knew of Kosminski - so some sort of official record was kept.

The details published by Sir RA even without names would be enough for someone on the inside to recognise he had material - the ID etc - that was not official.

Would he not have been taking a huge risk of prosecution?

we know he was nearly ruined in reputation and pension by his irish doings, but he expected those to remain secret. With AK he was almost asking for someone to look into what he and DSS had been doing.

Why should two such senior men take such a career risk?

I think you do them an injustice, unless you have grounds for thinking that something deeper was involved.

Phil H

[Fleetwood Mac]

John/Phil,

Yes, granted, an official report would have afforded the opportunity of cross-examination among their peers.

But, there are other compelling factors associated with the ID:

Authoritative and unwavering.

Phil, I'm not at all convinced with the failing memory view. All we're discussing is this: a) there was an ID b) they were convinced it was successful. Difficult to see how they could have been misled by the mind re these two simple propositions. The small details perhaps.

Moving on from there, whether or not it was Aaron is open to debate, as is whether or not they were right to be so convinced that this was their man.

[DVV]

Might that make more sense of the curious identification at the 'Seaside Home' which doesn't seem to tally with routine police procedure?

But if they were conducting an unofficial investigation, for what possible reason? Why not an official investigation?

Yes, Sally.
And why trying to ID Grainger in 1895 ? ....

[Phil H]

I'm not at all convinced with the failing memory view.

That is your right.

But at this remove none of us can be sure, can we?

I am not arguing that it was the case, it is JUST ONE option that makes the marginalia somewhat unquantifiable and thus evidential perhaps, but not EVIDENCE = PROOF.

Phil H

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood Mac:

"They were absolutely convinced they had their man.

Anderson claimed the diagnosis was proven right on every count.

Swanson's notes make it clear that suspect would have hanged and his name was Kosminski."

Yes, and MacNaghten, who placed his behind on the throne AFTER them, and who would have been privy to the material as such, including whatever it was Anderson and Swanson had on Kosminsky, was equally sure that HE had HIS man.
Curiously, though, it was not the same man...?

The best,
Fisherman

Immaterial I think, Fisherman.

MacNaghten didn't challenge the ID event.

All I'm saying is that there was an ID, the suspect was Kosminski, and they believed they had their man.

From this point, there are various possibilities.

[Phil H]

One possibility that has always interested me was whether there was ANOTHER witness of whom we have today seen no mention - a witness other than Lawende, Schwartz, Mrs Long etc.

There was Mr Hyams (?) who was with Lawende and of whom one account said, he appeared as if he knew more than he was saying.

What about Hutchinson? Abberline thought him credible.

There is so much that we do not know.

Phil H

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'm not at all convinced with the failing memory view.

That is your right.

But at this remove none of us can be sure, can we?

I am not arguing that it was the case, it is JUST ONE option that makes the marginalia somewhat unquantifiable and thus evidential perhaps, but not EVIDENCE = PROOF.

Phil H

Phil,

Couldn't disagree more.

There may be outside possibilities, such as Kosminski was a code name for someone whom they knew to not be called Kosminski.

But, you'd get something like 33/1 down the bookies for that.

It's odds on that an ID took place and Kosminski was the suspect - for reasons given.

[mklhawley]

Immaterial I think, Fisherman.

MacNaghten didn't challenge the ID event.

All I'm saying is that there was an ID, the suspect was Kosminski, and they believed they had their man.

From this point, there are various possibilities.

It's interesting that they didn't convince Abberline.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Fleetwood Mac]

One possibility that has always interested me was whether there was ANOTHER witness of whom we have today seen no mention - a witness other than Lawende, Schwartz, Mrs Long etc.

There was Mr Hyams (?) who was with Lawende and of whom one account said, he appeared as if he knew more than he was saying.

What about Hutchinson? Abberline thought him credible.

There is so much that we do not know.

Phil H

Me too, Phil.

One of the most interesting aspects for me is who exactly was this witness.

Lawende has his plus points in that he was backed up by two other people. There are the obvious problems in that by his own admission he didn't get a good look at her and he identified her by her dress. And, most importantly, he only saw two people having a chat. I for one wouldn't hang someone on that basis.

Schwartz doesn't even appear at the inquest. And, according to The Sun, the City Police were focusing on the respectably dressed fella carrying the parcel.

What we don't know is whether or not they had something else on the man, and Lawende's evidence was the tip of the iceberg.

Still feel there is room for someone else.