Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Phil H]

Chris, I accept your view, but on what is it based?

Were there any Jewish constables in the City force in 1888 - I'm not obsessed with Sagar - he was simply an example.

Phil H

[Chris]

Chris, I accept your view, but on what is it based?

That there weren't (officially) any Jews in England in the 16th century.

[The Good Michael]

Were there any Jewish constables in the City force in 1888 - I'm not obsessed with Sagar - he was simply an example.

There was Thomas Brown, the constable who committed suicide just after Kelly's funeral and seems to have not reported to duty the night of Kelly's murder. I'm pretty sure he was metro, however.

Mike

[Sally]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagar_(Anglo-Saxon_name)

[Monty]

Chris, I accept your view, but on what is it based?

Were there any Jewish constables in the City force in 1888 - I'm not obsessed with Sagar - he was simply an example.

Phil H

Ive just gone through my City Police records for the closest date I have to 1888, 1890, and the only name I can find based at Bishopsgate, which in my view is a possible foreign/Jewish Jewish name (thats not to say were Jewish) is City PC 943 Immelhoff.

Of course we have Benelius apprehender Met PC Henry Imhoff 211H.

One interesting piece of info I have on my records is that in 1901, the Caretaker for the Hambro synagogue in Union Street is one John Thain. Ex Met PC 96 J and one of the PCs at the murder scene of Mary Ann Nichols in Bucks Row.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Wow - interesting stuff about Thain there, Monty! It beats the Buck´s Row Cutbush ...!

Thanks for sharing!

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Hi Rob.

I have posted this before and it received little comment. But in my opinion, this note in the Swanson marginalia (which is rarely commented on) is very interesting. Swanson wrote "known to Scotland Yard head officers of CID" underlining "head" twice. Why underline it twice?

It has generally been assumed that this refers to the previous sentence about the Jack the Ripper letter --- which I think is almost certainly an incorrect assumption.

That only Head Officers at Scotland Yard knew the name of the enterprising journalist.

Note that in the previous paragraph, Anderson writes "Scotland Yard can boast that not even the subordinate officers of the department will tell tales out of school, and it would ill become me to violate the unwritten rule of the service." [This clearly implies that Anderson means it would "violate the unwritten rule of the service" to reveal the name of the killer.

But it does not mean that even subordinate officers at SY knew the name of the killer. This is only a general comment by Anderson to point out that even those who are subordinate (and presumably more likely to gossip), do not tell tales out of class.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil Carter]

That only Head Officers at Scotland Yard knew the name of the enterprising journalist.




But it does not mean that even subordinate officers at SY knew the name of the killer. This is only a general comment by Anderson to point out that even those who are subordinate (and presumably more likely to gossip), do not tell tales out of class.

Regards, Jon S.

Hello Jon,

Point No.1..my thoughts exactly.

Point No.2..Again, exactly, which makes me ask the same question I am dying to get an answer to.. WHY only Anderson (who didn't name Kosminski), Swanson, (who may have just been regailing Anderson's story, and thereby Anderson's suspect, not his own information), and Macnagthen, (who joined the fray late in the day and preferred not Kosminski, but Druitt as his culprit) ??

Why not every Commissioner in Scotland Yard since?(many of whom have written their own "Days of my Years") Why not every Assistant Commissioner and Chief Constable with access to every known record through the ages? Why not Special Branch top Cops (such as Littlechild, Melville, etc..who had absolutely nowt to lose naming Kosminski)? Littlechild told tales out of school... with Tumblety. So why not any one of literally hundreds of policemen since 1888...just those three, possibly two, pøossibly one, who knew Kosminski was THE culprit?

It simply doesn't make sense. There is therefore, imho, only one logical answer.

Anderson told a load of rubbish..otherwise Jack the Ripper would have been a dead and buried theme for the last 100 years. His claims were ignored or pooh poohed at the time.

Cue the Magic Roundabout.

best wishes

Phil

[robhouse]

Hi Rob.



That only Head Officers at Scotland Yard knew the name of the enterprising journalist.




But it does not mean that even subordinate officers at SY knew the name of the killer. This is only a general comment by Anderson to point out that even those who are subordinate (and presumably more likely to gossip), do not tell tales out of class.

Regards, Jon S.

Jon,

I understand (well) what is the generally accepted interpretation of this, my point is that I have a different take on it.

RH

[Phil H]

I think I agree with you, Rob.

And I think the reason it was known only to a few was that, with authority, Anderson and Swanson were going outside the book. Macnagten was not part of that and was kept out of it, I think - maybe he resented that and rejected a view in which he was not asked to share. On the other hand he seems to have been fed tidbits, or heard a few details.

I base this on the fact that the Met and City forces appear to have co-operated over Kosminski. the nature of the ID at Brighton and the other oddments that DSS provides.

If it was extra-curricular activity, that may be why DSS wanted to record it in his copy of Anderson's memoirs.

But pure speculation, so I don't ask anyone to agree.

Phil H

[Bridewell]

1911

Robert Sagar wasn't Jewish - he came from a family which had lived in Simonstone, Lancashire, since at least the 16th century [Victoria County History, Lancashire, vol. 6, pp. 496-503].

The place of birth is confirmed by the 1911 census entry which records him as living at 4, Surrenden Road, Preston Park, Preston, Brighton with his wife and two adult children.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Blimey Colin

An address I passed twice every day for seven years between 1965 and 1972!

All the best

Dave

[robhouse]

I think I agree with you, Rob.

And I think the reason it was known only to a few was that, with authority, Anderson and Swanson were going outside the book. Macnagten was not part of that and was kept out of it, I think - maybe he resented that and rejected a view in which he was not asked to share. On the other hand he seems to have been fed tidbits, or heard a few details.

I base this on the fact that the Met and City forces appear to have co-operated over Kosminski. the nature of the ID at Brighton and the other oddments that DSS provides.

If it was extra-curricular activity, that may be why DSS wanted to record it in his copy of Anderson's memoirs.

But pure speculation, so I don't ask anyone to agree.

Phil H

No one seems to agree with much I say these days, so that's nothing new.

Cheers.

Rob H

[Phil H]

Rob - you carry much authority in what you say. I (for one) always read your posts with interest.

Phil H

[Bridewell]

SPE Dissertation

Stewart's dissertation on the Seaside Home identification is well worth a read (or re-read). It's the most plausible explanation of the known facts to my mind.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-koz.html

Regards, Bridewell.