Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Errata]

Could you cite the source for this?

Damn. Wrong statistics, wrong century. Let me flip to my other sheet. The one that's not for my research paper due on Thursday *sigh* My bad.

4 million people in London
about 50,000 Jews.
35-40,000 living in the East End

everything else being the same...

83 guys. Maybe.

Now I have to check my paper and make sure I didn't plug in 1880's population estimates instead of New York cab drivers. And I totally did. I'll fix it tomorrow. Good save guys!

[lynn cates]

phrase

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"And let us not forget, this is only Hutchinson's interpretation of what it was to be Jewish"

Precisely. I would like to get a "feel" for what the typical East Ender (whatever that means) meant by the phrase.

Cheers.
LC

[miakaal4]

Jewish looking and mad?

I would have thought Jewish looking would include the clothes, possible beard and hairstyle. Unlike today, many of the Jewish immigrants would have come from small villages and communities across Europe, think; Fiddler on the roof.
They could certainly have had a "look" that was commonly recognised as Jewish. Old dark clothes, manner, and perhaps accents.
However, this proves very little as regard to the I.D. of the killer. Any tramp could have aquired old clothes that would perhaps, with long hair, give him a Jewish look. (Hooked nose? Lord Wellington had a famous hooked nose and he was Irish!)
And what do we know about madness in those times? People could be sent to the madhouse for almost anything, including epilepsy. My mum was sent to a "hospital" as late as 1943 for going out with soldiers when she was 16!
It seems that unruly behavior in a teenager was considered a form of mental illness even then!

[Tecs]

And what do we know about madness in those times? People could be sent to the madhouse for almost anything, including epilepsy. My mum was sent to a "hospital" as late as 1943 for going out with soldiers when she was 16!
It seems that unruly behavior in a teenager was considered a form of mental illness even then!

Sadly true.

A relative of mine had a friend who worked in an "asylum" for years and told horrendous stories of people who had been sent there for robbing apples as a child or something similar. Then, after years of being pumped full of crude medicines, they certainly were mentally unstable and ended up staying there for the rest of their life.

regards,

[miakaal4]

Hi Tecs,
Yeah, my mum did four years, and was only allowed to leave if my dad promised to stay with her and keep her out of trouble! They got married.
My dad met her when he was there visiting his brother who was doing time in the hospital for breaking windows in a bombed out factory with stones. Delinquency, best to lock em away!!

[PaulB]

Monty,
Quite true,but w e can be partially influenced by the comments of officers at the time that there were no suspects or evidence leading to a belief.While it may be foolish to overlook that evidence may have been known to some ,I feel it is even more foolish to accept there w as evidence,untill that evidence is known.

And what was the evidence on which those officers at the time said there was no evidence against any suspects?

[Michael W Richards]

Monty,
Quite true,but w e can be partially influenced by the comments of officers at the time that there were no suspects or evidence leading to a belief.While it may be foolish to overlook that evidence may have been known to some ,I feel it is even more foolish to accept there w as evidence,untill that evidence is known.

Very adroitly put Harry.

My personal belief is that unless specific evidence is referred to by senior officials in conjunction with their opinions, unless its cited in reports, statements or logs, described in detail by Internal memos, or that evidence still can be produced with accredited documentation to validate it, the suspects named in the most controversial documentation of the period should not be taken as serious considerations for the killer nicknamed "Jack" by today's students.

There were varied police opinions as to how many were killed by one man, there were various suspect opinions voiced, killer motivations supposed, killer profile suggestions, ...but none of that means a hill of beans in a criminal prosecution without hard evidence or compelling circumstantial evidence to support it.

Had Kosminski been discovered to have been associated with any single Canonical murder either by his physical proximity or by associated physical evidence I would heartily endorse the opinions voiced in the documents were discussing.

My best regards Harry

[Monty]

Monty,
Quite true,but w e can be partially influenced by the comments of officers at the time that there were no suspects or evidence leading to a belief.While it may be foolish to overlook that evidence may have been known to some ,I feel it is even more foolish to accept there w as evidence,untill that evidence is known.

Again Harry,

You are not in a position to comment on what is acceptable, as you are not party to the information the Police were at that precise moment.

It humours me that many here assume they know better than Anderson, Swanson et al. They do not.

Monty

[Errata]

I would have thought Jewish looking would include the clothes, possible beard and hairstyle. Unlike today, many of the Jewish immigrants would have come from small villages and communities across Europe, think; Fiddler on the roof.
They could certainly have had a "look" that was commonly recognised as Jewish. Old dark clothes, manner, and perhaps accents.
However, this proves very little as regard to the I.D. of the killer. Any tramp could have aquired old clothes that would perhaps, with long hair, give him a Jewish look. (Hooked nose? Lord Wellington had a famous hooked nose and he was Irish!)
And what do we know about madness in those times? People could be sent to the madhouse for almost anything, including epilepsy. My mum was sent to a "hospital" as late as 1943 for going out with soldiers when she was 16!
It seems that unruly behavior in a teenager was considered a form of mental illness even then!

There are certainly any number of clues that could reveal someone as Jewish, but it is in fact mostly in the styling. Wearing a tallis or a kippah clearly marks someone as a Jew. Peyos is also a sign of an orthodox Jew. A long beard may also indicate Judaism. Dress is a little tricky. Without religious accessories, Jews would not have dressed all that differently from others in the East End. At most they might lean more towards formality, but it was completely based on occupation. A Jewish Butcher is not wearing a black suit. A Jewish tailor is.

I think that most people in the East End would identify a Jew by language. If a man talked to another man in Yiddish, hes a Jew. And to be brutally honest, there would have been a vibe around Jews. More than just a sense of otherness that we usually get from foreigners. There would have been a million non verbal cues. A man who holds himself slightly apart from gentiles, someone who has a sort of shattered pride, someone not entirely comfortable out in the world, someone who feels unsafe around non-Jews. And it would all make total sense for refugees of the Pale. And it would reveal itself in the set of the shoulders, the way they move, the simple gestures they choose to use or choose not to use. We tend to be a somewhat superstitious folk, and have about a dozen gestures to ward off evil. So if some guy spits between his two fingers instead of knocking on wood, that man is likely a Jew.

But mostly when we try to categorize someone we didn't get a good look at, we tend towards association. There's a woman who lives next door, and I've only ever seen the top of her head, because I've been on my balcony when she leaves. I think she's Persian. She's Persian in my head. Not necessarily because she looks Persian, I have no idea. But her hair reminds me of a girl I grew up with who was Persian. Anything could prompt an unconscious association. "Gee that guy reminds me of my Jewish neighbor" or "He's wearing the same suit as the Rabbi that comes into my shop." or "This guy walks like my husbands tailor." It's not necessarily that the man "looked Jewish". It could easily be that he had some characteristic that she equated with Jews, or were very similar to a Jew of her acquaintance. It's why eyewitness testimony is such a mess. Snap judgements are important for survival, but they make witness statements unreliable.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Blind acceptance rules OK.

Regards,

Simon

[Michael W Richards]

Again Harry,

You are not in a position to comment on what is acceptable, as you are not party to the information the Police were at that precise moment.

It humours me that many here assume they know better than Anderson, Swanson et al. They do not.

Monty

If I may jump in on that Monty, Harry.....Therein lies the problem Monty, ...we do not have any information other than their opinions to assess. We dont have references to any specific evidence in the literature that remains, and its improbable that of all of those documents were the ones stolen, bombed, lost or destroyed, ....ones that held any specific details or missing references to evidence that was to accompany senior official accusation. We do not know if disinformation protecting their own liabilities is at play here either. But its clear we do not have any existing evidence, nor any references to some kind of specific evidence of any link, physical evidence or circumstantial, of any of the 3 named suspects in the Memorandum to any one of the Canonical murders.

Reserving an opinion on Swanson and the margin call, Andersons opinion must be considered as good as his historical integrity, which is to say, suspect. MacNaughten is so after the fact when it comes to the meat and potatoes of the suspected Jack the Ripper kills and investigations, as the primary murders happened 6 months before he came aboard, that his opinion must be considered culled from the previous investigators of the specific 2 1/2 month period in time in 88.

Swanson does stand out among the few who can be trusted with the specifics of the cases and investigations, he was there at the time and saw it all.

What Ive suggested, and others, is that perhaps these investigations overlapped with investigations of greater international scope and importance and as such, some information vital to the understanding of one or more of these murder investigations might be locked away. Its not hard to imagine since all of the key Ripper players are from agencies that dealt with Anti Irish Rule investigations and investigations of other actions and revolutions pending abroad. Their own National Security as well.

National Security, Secrecy and Privacy,....versus a call to bring justice to 5 homeless part time prostitutes who its thought were brutally murdered while plying their trade.

I know which way most of the governments today would vote. In fact Ive heard rumors here that large scale drug investigations running in the 80's and 90's in Vancouver Canada may not have shared information with local authorities that they had uncovered about the growing number of missing prostitutes. Picton may have killed more women as a result...if true.

Cheers Monty

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

Blind acceptance rules OK.

Regards,

Simon

I find its almost on a par with blind dismissal Simon.

I pay more attention to those who were there and experienced the event than someone assessing it from 124 years too late and who is not party to the full facts.

Besides, its not about acceptance, its about consideration and evaluation.

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

I agree with you about evaluation.

This is why we must seek to establish if we have actually been told the truth and not simply embarked upon a 124-year-old fool's errand.

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

I agree with you about evaluation.

This is why we must seek to establish if we have actually been told the truth and not simply embarked upon a 124-year-old fool's errand.

Regards,

Simon

If it is all a lie Simon then what the hell is the motive?

Monty

[lynn cates]

acid test

Hello Errata. Actually, if I want to know whether one of my students is Jewish, all I need do is give him/her a pen and paper and say, "Spell God." If the "o" is replaced with a hyphen, then the student is Jewish.

Works every time.

Cheers.
LC