Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Wickerman]

Of the senior policemen, who actually named suspects, two of them name Kosminski, and one of these in so doing purports to be enlarging on what his former chief was saying in his memoirs...so effectively three of them are implying one man as a suspect...

Hi Dave.
Three senior policemen all holding the same opinion can appear impressive, or at least significant. However, we are not talking about three independent opinions. It would only take one written report, emanating from Swanson, to spread one opinion among the three men.
Note Abberline does not mention this issue. The very fact that three officers (who worked together) carried the same opinion can be easily countered by the fact that no other senior officer, some of whom must have been involved like, Abberline, Moore, Reid, Monro, Shore, Warren, including McWilliam & Smith of the City, left no similar thoughts on this issue.

Even though we can name three men (Anderson, Macnaghten, Swanson), it is essentially the same opinion voiced three times, because all three men worked as a team together.

I'm not asserting that Aaron was the suspect...nor am I denying it...I'm merely stating three distinguished coppers reckoned somebody called Kosminski was worth a look...

He was a suspect we can't deny that, but how significant we he? At the time of the murders, apparently not very significant. He is not mentioned by anyone. His significance grew sometime after the murders, how long after, and why, is still debatable.

Regards, Jon S.

[harry]

I think the reason w hy no progress has been made,is because prime suspects,so called,as evidence Kosminski,has little value,and that the evidence against them is so weak,it would be foolish to place too much trust in a belief that any were JTR.

[Bridewell]

Links to a Jewish Man

What evidence exists to link any Canonical Murder to a Jewish man living in the East End at the time of the murders in the Fall of 1888?

Nichols: None.

Chapman: Only the Long sighting (if it was Chapman she saw) and if, by "looked like a foreigner", she meant Jewish.

Stride: Location only - outside a club frequented, in the main, by Jews.

Eddowes: Similar argument to Stride, but even weaker.

Kelly: Hutchinson's Astrakhan man of "Jewish appearance".

The Stride & Eddowes link, if it is one at all, is very weak, because there was a large Jewish population anyway. I guess it comes down to how much weight is attached to the evidence of Long & Hutchinson. I think the only significant evidence is the Hutchinson sighting which, if genuine, puts a victim in the company of a Jewish man, heading towards 13, Millers Court two hours before the likely time of death. Either Hutchinson is a liar or there is evidence linking a 'canonical' victim to a Jewish man at the material time. Whether or not he lived in the East End cannot be known but, if he actually existed, he can certainly be placed there.

N.B. I don't want to transform this into yet another Hutchinson thread, but it was impossible to address Michael's (highly pertinent - but probably rhetorical?) question without his name being mentioned.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

keeping up appearances

Hello Colin.

"I think the only significant evidence is the Hutchinson sighting which, if genuine, puts a victim in the company of a Jewish man, heading towards 13, Millers Court two hours before the likely time of death. Either Hutchinson is a liar or there is evidence linking a 'canonical' victim to a Jewish man at the material time."

Or, better, a "Jewish looking" man.

Cheers.
LC

[robhouse]

I think the reason w hy no progress has been made,is because prime suspects,so called,as evidence Kosminski,has little value,and that the evidence against them is so weak,it would be foolish to place too much trust in a belief that any were JTR.

Thank you for illustrating my point.

RH

[Bridewell]

Oops

Hello Colin.

"I think the only significant evidence is the Hutchinson sighting which, if genuine, puts a victim in the company of a Jewish man, heading towards 13, Millers Court two hours before the likely time of death. Either Hutchinson is a liar or there is evidence linking a 'canonical' victim to a Jewish man at the material time."

Or, better, a "Jewish looking" man.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Indeed. My apologies for the error.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

What does it all mean?

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Incidentally, has anyone ever figured out what it means to be Jewish looking?

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

I think the reason why no progress has been made,is because prime suspects,so called,as evidence Kosminski, has little value,and that the evidence against them is so weak,it would be foolish to place too much trust in a belief that any were JTR.

Hello Harry,

Agreed. Totally agreed.
Plus the fact that for much of the time we have had people making false claims of having found Jack the Ripper. Or the solution. Or the answer to the riddle. Or, or, or. The prime suspect range you write of, is as wide as a river. All inclusive IF one makes a theory sound convincing enough. You pays yer money, you buys a theory, you hold on to it for life.

Not many have changed their opinions dramatically. Result? Deadlock, ever riding roundabouts, wheels re-attached onto faltering wagons for the umpteenth time and theories ground into total stalemate without any evidence to bring the theory forward one iota.

Kosminski, Druitt and Tumblety are all at a stalemate.A bunch of nobodys getting us nowhere.. and it has been that way for a long time now. It can, and will never change, until someone realises there is more to all this than weak theories based on nobodys, and that simply put..the SIMPLE ANSWER doesn't work. 125 years of study.. and the simplest solution doesn't work because somebody made it difficult by nicking, sorry, borrowing and never returning, official case material.

We have a classic trio. The dead one, the mad one and the one that ran away abroad. Or should I say..The hung, the drawn and the one in all quarters but London.

Add in a touch of Royalty, a doctor and an insanely jealous husband, and the pretty picture is complete when the painter takes a bow.

The "Magnificent 7" strikes again. Druitt, Kosminski, Tumblety, Prince Eddy, Sir William Gull, James Maybrick and Walter Sickert.

If any more oil isn't poured out over on these people's reputations within the next 18 months or so, I'll be very surprised.

All for a "Fistful of Dollars", no doubt. Or a "Few Dollars More", perhaps.




best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Incidentally, has anyone ever figured out what it means to be Jewish looking?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Without deliberately donning the "Fagin" look from Charles Dickens, I'd guess a hooked nose may have something to do with it. No offence at all to any member of the Jewish Faith.

And before anyone accuses me of saying anything that shouldn't be said in this politically correct world, I am talking about "then" public perceptions.
They are not mine.

best wishes

Phil

[Bridewell]

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Incidentally, has anyone ever figured out what it means to be Jewish looking?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Similarly, how does Elizabeth Long arrive at "looked like a foreigner" in respect of a man she only saw from behind?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

I think the reason w hy no progress has been made,is because prime suspects,so called,as evidence Kosminski,has little value,and that the evidence against them is so weak,it would be foolish to place too much trust in a belief that any were JTR.

As it stands today, from outside the investigation and 120 odd years later.

You, I, all of us are not party to the full information and why Kosminski was suspected.

It would be even more foolish to dismiss someone who was suspected at the time when the full facts are not known.

Monty

[Tecs]

Dear all,

I think that our terror of appearing racist/anti semitic/bigoted etc stops us from admitting that certain peoples do possess certain characteristics. I attended a meeting at a Jewish club last year and it was obvious without being told that many people there were Jewish. This doesn't mean that all of the Jewish people that were there were of very obvious Jewish appearance, but many were. Also, I asked my wife a few weeks ago if one of the mums from school was Polish. She confirmed that she was. I couldn't tell you what somebody Polish looks like or to put it another way, how a Polish person differs from an English person, but she just did. I can't explain it but it is something I could identify.

It's also important to remember that the Police bent over backwards to stop any anti-semitic tensions. They changed (doctored some would say) Hutchinson's description of Jewish to foreign and Charles Warren himself wrote, probably disingenuously, to the press to say that Juwes didn't mean Jews in any known language.

And Martin Fido reckoned that Long's assessment of his foreigness came from hearing his accent.

regards,

[Errata]

Hello Lynn,

Without deliberately donning the "Fagin" look from Charles Dickens, I'd guess a hooked nose may have something to do with it. No offence at all to any member of the Jewish Faith.

And before anyone accuses me of saying anything that shouldn't be said in this politically correct world, I am talking about "then" public perceptions.
They are not mine.

best wishes

Phil

No, that's still the perception. Dark hair, dark eyes, hooked nose, facial hair on both men and women... one of my most despised phrases is "but you don't look Jewish"

Of course the problem is that if you walk into any synagogue, maybe a third of Jews look like that. And it's not due to some weird spate of intermarrying. We just dont have a look. Now I have red hair, green eyes, pale skin. I did used to have a bit of a hook, but after a car accident when it had to be reattached I lost it. But my sister never did. She has light brown hair, blue eyes, eye watering pale skin. But she takes after my mother, who was born a Scottish Catholic. I look exactly like my paternal great grandmother. Who was from Klodawa. Her sisters were blonds and redheads, light eyes, pale skin. She didn't have the nose, but my grandfather evidently introduced that into the family, and since his father was Austrian, it could be the German hook and not the Semitic hook.

If there was never any intermarrying ever, Jews still would not look like pale Arabs. A lot of them would, but our phenotype has redheads, it has blonds, it has light eyes. So "looks Jewish" really in the entire course of history has only applied to someone wearing tzitzit and a kippah. Which is pretty Jewish.
Based on no science whatsoever but given the dominant phenotypes in Poland, Kosminski probably did not "Look Jewish" he might had a hooked nose, but that tends to come from either extremely isolated communities, which Klodawa was not, or Germanic regions, which is stretching it a bit. He probably had medium to light brown hair, brown or hazel eyes, light skin. I mean, I could totally be wrong on this, but that's what Polish Jews tend to look like. Russian Jews tend to be darker, but with more blondes cropping up.

My (VERY Semitic) uncle was in Japan for a six week conference, and towards the end of his stay, he was astounded to find that there was a Synagogue in Tokyo. So he goes for Shabbat, and he is very impressed with the service. Afterwards he goes to introduce himself to the Japanese Rabbi and congratulate him on his sermon, and after he shakes his hand, the Rabbi gets a wicked smile on his face and tells my uncle "Funny, You don't look Jewish."

[Phil Carter]

Hi Lynn,

Similarly, how does Elizabeth Long arrive at "looked like a foreigner" in respect of a man she only saw from behind?

Regards, Bridewell.

Hello Colin,

She saw a man with an egg and bacon sandwich lodged into the top of his torn coat shoulder.. and as he was muttering in French tones, thought he was the lunchpack of Notre Dame.

best wishes

Phil

[Errata]

Dear all,

I think that our terror of appearing racist/anti semitic/bigoted etc stops us from admitting that certain peoples do possess certain characteristics. I attended a meeting at a Jewish club last year and it was obvious without being told that many people there were Jewish. This doesn't mean that all of the Jewish people that were there were of very obvious Jewish appearance, but many were. Also, I asked my wife a few weeks ago if one of the mums from school was Polish. She confirmed that she was. I couldn't tell you what somebody Polish looks like or to put it another way, how a Polish person differs from an English person, but she just did. i can't explain it but it is something I could identify.

It's also important to remember that the Police bent over backwards to stop any anti-semitic tensions. They changed (doctored some would say) Hutchinson's description of Jewish to foreign and Charles Warren himself wrote, probably disingenuously, to the press to say that Juwes didn't mean Jews in any known language.

And Martin Fido reckoned that Long's assessment of his foreigness came from hearing his accent.

regards,

Phenotypes exist. No doubt. But you also have to realize that the makeup of Jews in England today is not what is was 100 years ago. You have far more Jews today who come from the Middle East, because of strife that erupted in the past 60 years. You have Germanic Jew refugees from WWII. And those are the peoples who are most likely to "look Jewish". Also a little less than half of Russian Jews fit the stereotype, but slightly more than half don't. With the rate of intermarriage in cosmopolitan cities in the last 40 years, Jews in England are more homogenized than they were 100 years ago. The other thing to remember that there are nowhere near as many of us today as there were then. There are 18 million Jews today worldwide. In 1888 there were about 25 million. And most people think that the 18 million number is a bald faced lie, but it isn't. There are more people running around who "look Jewish" than are in fact Jewish. They are German protestants, Russian Orthodox, Arab Muslims, mutt Americans. Here we have a lot of Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Catholics and Jews working together on a lot of charities. You can't tell them apart. I know half the Jews in this town, and I can't tell them apart. Of course my perceptions got knocked around quite a bit as a kid when a bunch of Somali Jews joined our congregation.