Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Fisherman]

Jon, on Phil C:s post:

"It is encouraging to see it was a contemporary view."

It is! Pity, though, that the medico was named Batty ...

One interesting thing is that - apart from showing the good Dr Tuke to be an insightful man - is that we can clearly see how the notion that the killer would have been a lunatic was very persistent and widespread. Dr Tuke tries to fight it off, but he would have been in a minority, especially if we do not look at medicos only. The man in the street and the police officer in his office would be very likely to have their money on a raving maniac.

Thanks for posting this, Phil!

The best,
Fisherman

[Phil Carter]

Jon, on Phil C:s post:

"It is encouraging to see it was a contemporary view."

It is! Pity, though, that the medico was named Batty ...

One interesting thing is that - apart from showing the good Dr Tuke to be an insightful man - is that we can clearly see how the notion that the killer would have been a lunatic was very persistent and widespread. Dr Tuke tries to fight it off, but he would have been in a minority, especially if we do not look at medicos only. The man in the street and the police officer in his office would be very likely to have their money on a raving maniac.Thanks for posting this, Phil!

The best,
Fisherman

My emphasis in bold

Hello Christer,

Well, if the man in the street has been force fed through the newspaperes the idea of a raving loony running around Whitechapel wielding a knife, and the police failed miserably in capturing this madman, then it doesn't surprise me one iota that Sir Robert Anderson held his and the reputation of the Met Police in such high esteem that he came out with the "we know who did it but couldn't arrest him" line..conveniently a raving loony without the mearest hint of a record of violence to his name.

Blimey..I've just thought... maybe he was being violent with his self abuse in a gutter or two.

The whole point is that there is more than enough reason to relegate Aaron Kosminski from a prime suspect for candicacy for the Whitechapel murders.
No evidence, and contemporary medical opinion that walks Aaron Kosminski's personality right out of the door called correct and fitting candicacy.

Swanson gave a name. Of Anderson's loony suspect.

Trouble is... the loony suspect doesn't seem to match contemporary medical opinion...only the need to have a clean record and the Met Police reputation flying high in the wind...LONG after the fact.

As I said though.. as long as some inform/recommend to Scotland Yard and their website and the odd police museum or two that Aaron Kosminski was the likely killer..the rest of the world will keep on lapping it up. A review of this suspect has been a long time coming. But too many irons are in the fire for it to be realistically evaluated.
Ask Sir Robert Anderson, Ass. Comm.

best wishes

Phil

[Wickerman]

Dr Tuke tries to fight it off, but he would have been in a minority...

And 'we' know how well received minority views can be, but its often the minority views which break new ground.

The man in the street and the police officer in his office would be very likely to have their money on a raving maniac.

Because that is the simplistic solution, and by 'simplistic' I only mean the solution that immediately comes to mind.

It is akin to searching for the most scary looking man (Boogie monster, or Bogey man) to be the murderer, and we have any number of modern examples of that being quite wrong.

"Jack" may be have been quite charming, approachable and apparently harmless.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon,

It is akin to searching for the most scary looking man (Boogie monster, or Bogey man) to be the murderer, and we have any number of modern examples of that being quite wrong.

Exactly. And have you noticed the intention re Kosminski's personality by modern commentators proposing his candicacy? To make Kosminski seem as loony and dangerous as possible with all sorts of medical labels and medical conditions.

The post I posted about Dr Batty Tuke is most important, and balances things a bit. A lot, infact. Kosminski, Aaron, the "best guess", is in reality a very weak proposition for a KILLER.

It won't go down well in some quarters Jon..it won't go down well.

best wishes

Phil

[Errata]

Hello Jon,

The post I posted about Dr Batty Tuke is most important, and balances things a bit. A lot, infact. Kosminski, Aaron, the "best guess", is in reality a very weak proposition for a KILLER.

best wishes

Phil

Clearly I don't think it was Kosminski either. But the contemporary focus on his bizarre behavior and what that means it a great intellectual exercise, but nothing more. Kosminski clearly might have been mad. He might have been perfectly sane and just had a breakdown. He could have had some persistent illness that caused problems, despite the fact he was perfectly sane. We have no way of knowing.

But none of it means he wasn't a killer. Personally, I think that an insane person could not have gotten away with those crimes. He could certainly have committed them, I just don't see a crazy guy exercising the appropriate stealth, planning, etc. But Kosminski never shows that kind of madness. It's not like he left reality and never came back. So whatever was wrong with him, he was not "mad" meaning suffering from a permanent illness that renders a person incapable of functioning.

In 2012, he seems at best an unlikely suspect. But there's a lot we don't know about him. And conceivable there are things that could have rightfully gained him suspicion. I imagine if the police found out that he was at the scene, or spotted in the vicinity or other murders of prostitutes, before the Ripper spree, that would earn him a very hard look. But we wouldn't know that because that information didn't survive.

Nothing excludes him, nothing includes him. I don't think Aaron Kosminski killed anybody, because I think if he had surely the stress of the asylum would have provoked him to kill again. Not unlike jail. But there is nothing I can point to and say "This means he didn't do it". Basically, he is as much of a suspect as any other man in his age group, vicinity, and social class. Which is a lot of men. But we can't rule him out.

I think the best bet for putting him aside as somehow special as a suspect would be to find who Swanson was talking about, if not Aaron Kosminski.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Errata,

Clearly I don't think it was Kosminski either. But the contemporary focus on his bizarre behavior and what that means it a great intellectual exercise, but nothing more. Kosminski clearly might have been mad. He might have been perfectly sane and just had a breakdown. He could have had some persistent illness that caused problems, despite the fact he was perfectly sane. We have no way of knowing.

my emphasis

And by looking at the available records..we see what? A harmless lunatic with NO violent episodes anywhere near killing anyone in 27 yearsof incarceration.

But none of it means he wasn't a killer. Personally, I think that an insane person could not have gotten away with those crimes. He could certainly have committed them, I just don't see a crazy guy exercising the appropriate stealth, planning, etc. But Kosminski never shows that kind of madness. It's not like he left reality and never came back. So whatever was wrong with him, he was not "mad" meaning suffering from a permanent illness that renders a person incapable of functioning.

Incapable of functioning isnt the core argument here..it's "was he capable of being a killer in his own mind and in the minds of his medical guardians and demonstrated actions or examples that could lead to such conclusions whilst in 27 years of custody", surely?

In 2012, he seems at best an unlikely suspect. But there's a lot we don't know about him. And conceivable there are things that could have rightfully gained him suspicion. I imagine if the police found out that he was at the scene, or spotted in the vicinity or other murders of prostitutes, before the Ripper spree, that would earn him a very hard look. But we wouldn't know that because that information didn't survive.

my emphasis,

Agreed. That is a common sense view.. he IS an unlikely suspect.
But this stuff about information not surviving really is wrong. You are presuming there WAS stuff on Kosminski, Aaron, re.the Whitechapel Murders.
If I imagined one of my 3 Gt Grandads living in the area (who were 27, 24 and 29 in 1888) being possibly suspected of being the Whitechapel murderer and said... "but the files havent survived so I cant show you all"....it would be laughed at. There isn't one iota of proof that anyone called Aaron Kosminski had anything at all to do with the murders. Period.

Nothing excludes him, nothing includes him. I don't think Aaron Kosminski killed anybody, because I think if he had surely the stress of the asylum would have provoked him to kill again. Not unlike jail. But there is nothing I can point to and say "This means he didn't do it". Basically, he is as much of a suspect as any other man in his age group, vicinity, and social class. Which is a lot of men. But we can't rule him out.

my emphasis

So he is about as likely a suspect as about 20,000 others in the surrounding 5mile area. Now if you had added "Jew" then you would know where SRA was coming from. Pin the tail on the donkey and identify it later. Just find a donkey first.

I think the best bet for putting him aside as somehow special as a suspect would be to find who Swanson was talking about, if not Aaron Kosminski.

That will never happen.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris]

If I imagined one of my 3 Gt Grandads living in the area (who were 27, 24 and 29 in 1888) being possibly suspected of being the Whitechapel murderer and said... "but the files havent survived so I cant show you all"....it would be laughed at.

If he were named as a suspect by one of the senior detectives who worked on the case, the laugh would be on the eccentric few who were determined not to admit he was a suspect.

[Phil Carter]

If he were named as a suspect by one of the senior detectives who worked on the case, the laugh would be on the eccentric few who were determined not to admit he was a suspect.

Hello Chris,

Thanks.

Do Please tell me where AARON Kosminski was named by two of the senior detectives, because if Im not wrong, that is exactly who is being talked about in the asylum records.

It is HE who has been promoted as the "PRIME SUSPECT". No other Kosminski.

THAT is what makes the argument so laughable Chris. A PRIME suspect?

Utter codswallop. But then, when a sensible comment from Errata comes along that he is, at best an unlikely suspect.....feathers get ruffled.

Dr Batty Tuke said it very nicely. And it is contemporary.

best wishes

Phil

[Fisherman]

It cannot be contested that there was a suspect who went under the name Kosminski. That is established beyond doubt. Andersons, Swansons and MacNaghtens joint efforts tell us that this was so.

We may also be reasonably sure that this man was considered a worthy suspect back then. This too courtesy of the same three men.

The problems only arise when we try to understand what was needed to make you a worthy suspect! Did there have to be an established connection to one or more of the murders, either by physical presence or by some other sort of implication? Or was it enough to represent a certain type?

Well. without being able to tell what it was the police had - or thought they had - on Kosminski, we can see that people like Issenschmidt and Ostrog were put on par with Kosminski. And it would seem that these men were merely representants of a certain type of person. Of Ostrog, we know that "this man’s antecedents were of the worst possible type, and his whereabouts at the time of the murders could never be ascertained."

...and that tells us that the police could never even tie him to London at the times of the murders, just as they had not a shred of caserelated evidence - they just knew that Ostrogs antecedentia spelt trouble. Of course, we know today that Ostrog seems to have been a con artist most of all, and not a crafty killer, so they did not even seem to get it right on that score. Of course, he was also a foreigner, a Russian.

Issenschmidt seems to tick just about the same boxes: Nobody could place him at the murder spots, it was just known that he took nightly walks with knives on his person. He was also thought by the police to be potentially dangerous, whereas his wife assured them that Issenschmidt would not be dangerous to anybody but herself; she assumed he would try and kill her at some stage - something that did not happen. And once again, we have a man of foreign extraction.

So there we are: Without knowing what kind of suspicions there were against Kosminski and the quality of the evidence adhering to his person, we may see that those ranked alongside him did not have much going for them as Ripper suspects - they fit the "mad foreigner" bill, and that was more than enough.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Phil H]

Phil C

You do many of us a disservice in your post.

My position, and i think that of others (but I can only speak for myself, has been consistently:

a) that DSS and MM mention only "Kosminski" (no foremane);

b) that the ONLY Kosminski found in asylum records to date is Aaron Kosminski;

c) that the details of said Aaron appear to correlate (to some degree) with those mentioned by DSS;

d) BUT death date and other details are problematic.

Do Please tell me where AARON Kosminski was named by two of the senior detectives, because if Im not wrong, that is exactly who is being talked about in the asylum records.

AARON Kosminski was, as you well know, never referred to be DSS or MM. Neither am I aware that anyone sensible has claimed such. As I have noted above, Araon is, however, the only Kosminski so far found in the records (leaving aside KAMinski). To follow Araion thus is not IMHO unreasonable.

It is HE who has been promoted as the "PRIME SUSPECT". No other Kosminski.

What other Kosminski is there? The contemporary suspect is simply KOMINSKI.

A PRIME suspect?

He (Kosminski - but not Aaron) IS a prime suspect because he was so named by TWO senior officials at the time. For no other reason. But no evidence yet produced undermines completely the tenable hypothesis that AARON is worthy of consideration as the man concerned - indeed I would assert the reverse is true.

The WORKING HYPOTHESIS is, therefore, that that the man referred to as having been "identified" in the Seaside Home is Aaron. At the same time, I am always careful to have at the back of my mind (and I have mentioned this in previous posts) that "Kosminski" might just be a "codeword" for someone else.

Now for obvious reasons one cannot repeat all this in every post and one has to resort to a certain amount of "shorthand". It is, though, I think fair to say that most of the research being done is on Aaron - viz the recent Ripperologist article.

I retain an open mind on what DSS meant, and how he came to have the details he did. It would, IMHO, be foolish to do anything else given the present state of our knowledge.

That said, I think if we had the suspect file on "Kosminski" all might be explained, as it seems to me that the confusion over the marginalia is chiefly in our minds, and not that of DSS. he might have had incorrect data, but he knew what he meant and was clear about it.

Please do not denigrate others on false grounds. Kosminski is not a weak suspect, Aaron Kosminski is a reasonable subject of futher study.

Phil H

[Phil Carter]

Hello Christer,

So there we are: Without knowing what kind of suspicions there were against Kosminski and the quality of the evidence adhering to his person, we may see that those ranked alongside him did not have much going for them as Ripper suspects - they fit the "mad foreigner" bill, and that was more than enough.

Not AARON Kosminski, Christer. Not AARON. but the mad foreigner bill is really playing pin the tail on the donkey...the pre determined donkey. There were NO JTR suspicions against AARON Kosminski. And HE is the person whom the bandwagon has fitted up as the Prime Suspect of the Whitechapel murders. It is just plain wrong.

But when a contemporary piece of medical comment comes along and blows apart all the guesswork and puzzle piece fitting from modern forensic psychologists trying to decide who was nearest in personality to the likely killer, a pre determined stereotype, I add...then.... realistically, Aaron Kosminski's candicacy should be drastically reduced to what it actually is.. at best, an unlikely suspect.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris]

Do Please tell me where AARON Kosminski was named by two of the senior detectives, because if Im not wrong, that is exactly who is being talked about in the asylum records.

Well, if you want to believe Swanson was referring to a different Kosminski that's up to you. Of course it would help if you could find any trace of Kosminski II in the records. But I suppose you can always fall back on "the files haven't survived" ...

[Wickerman]

If he were named as a suspect ....

six years later!

...by one of the senior detectives who worked on the case, the laugh would be on the eccentric few who were determined not to admit he was a suspect.

We repeatedly fall into this trap of referring to Kosminski in the present tense as if he was a suspect in 1888, I wonder why, does it make him more viable?

Suppose, for the sake of accuracy, we inserted a "years later", into the sentence, ie; "If he were named as a suspect years later....." , would that weaken his candidacy?, darn right it would!
If we call it like it is, there would be no need for laughter in either camp.

...by one of the senior detectives who worked on the case...

Abberline was also senior detective on the case, so how should we view Chapman's candidacy?

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil Carter]

Phil C

You do many of us a disservice in your post.

My position, and i think that of others (but I can only speak for myself, has been consistently:

a) that DSS and MM mention only "Kosminski" (no foremane);

b) that the ONLY Kosminski found in asylum records to date is Aaron Kosminski;

c) that the details of said Aaron appear to correlate (to some degree) with those mentioned by DSS;

d) BUT death date and other details are problematic.

Do Please tell me where AARON Kosminski was named by two of the senior detectives, because if Im not wrong, that is exactly who is being talked about in the asylum records.

AARON Kosminski was, as you well know, never referred to be DSS or MM. Neither am I aware that anyone sensible has claimed such. As I have noted above, Araon is, however, the only Kosminski so far found in the records (leaving aside KAMinski). To follow Araion thus is not IMHO unreasonable.

It is HE who has been promoted as the "PRIME SUSPECT". No other Kosminski.

What other Kosminski is there? The contemporary suspect is simply KOMINSKI.

A PRIME suspect?

He (Kosminski - but not Aaron) IS a prime suspect because he was so named by TWO senior officials at the time. For no other reason. But no evidence yet produced undermines completely the tenable hypothesis that AARON is worthy of consideration as the man concerned - indeed I would assert the reverse is true.

The WORKING HYPOTHESIS is, therefore, that that the man referred to as having been "identified" in the Seaside Home is Aaron. At the same time, I am always careful to have at the back of my mind (and I have mentioned this in previous posts) that "Kosminski" might just be a "codeword" for someone else.

Now for obvious reasons one cannot repeat all this in every post and one has to resort to a certain amount of "shorthand". It is, though, I think fair to say that most of the research being done is on Aaron - viz the recent Ripperologist article.

I retain an open mind on what DSS meant, and how he came to have the details he did. It would, IMHO, be foolish to do anything else given the present state of our knowledge.

That said, I think if we had the suspect file on "Kosminski" all might be explained, as it seems to me that the confusion over the marginalia is chiefly in our minds, and not that of DSS. he might have had incorrect data, but he knew what he meant and was clear about it.

Please do not denigrate others on false grounds. Kosminski is not a weak suspect, Aaron Kosminski is a reasonable subject of futher study.

Phil H

Hello Phil H,

Do I? A dis service?.. Well PRIME SUSPECT AARON Kosminski is the subject of Rob House's book, who I recognise as probably THE person who knows more on the Kosminski subject than any other. It is HE and/or his publishers that have called the Kosminski he has promoted as the Prime Suspect. Not me. I didnt make it up.

I have to say this.. whilst you first say we must assume there WAS a file on Kosminski (I dont), you cannot say that we CANT presume there wasnt ANOTHER Kosminski around, but we havent found him.. same rules.

Personally, I believe that IF a KOSMINSKI DID exist in any file, that was the name the police knew him by... and his real name was something else.

Finally, you or anyone else can argue until the cows come home..but I have produced contemporary medical opinion on the mind of the killer from the BMJ. It wipes the smile off the modern day profilers trying to fit up Aaron Kosminski. All the modern slant on putting labels of what type of person the killer was, medically speaking of the mind, can be re thought. Ive heard so many psychosis and counter reasons of what mind "Kosminski, Aaron" was that it is deliberately used to back up a very unlikely argument for his likely guilt.

Like I said at the start of this... someone will come along and try to du-bugg this posting of mine in some way shape or form. But the fact remains..and SHOULD now be recognised...

It wont wash...there isnt one iota of proof that Aaron Kosminski had anything whatsoever to do with the Whitechapel murders. Period.

Andcontemporary medical opinion shows his profile doesnt fit either. He's the wrong type of loony.

Recipe for calling someopne the Whitechapel Murderer..by SRA

1) Estrange a group of foreign people in comment.
2) Devalue their contribution to society by pointing out they are different from the norm.
3) Blame one individual from this group for the murders of x amount of women, to cover the inability of the police to catch the killer(s), and keep the reputation of siad force excellent, as well as cover one's own arse by wallpapering over one's own inability to run a police foirce in a crisis properly because one doesnt have a poliemans background and knows nothing of how real policing on the ground actually works.
4) Use a moral high ground as a back up to emphasise ones own guilty theory for innocent people.

Stir well, however much your comments are ignored at the time, and hope some gullible people looking for an answer will believe you.

Ahhhh...Bisto!


best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

six years later!

We repeatedly fall into this trap of referring to Kosminski in the present tense as if he was a suspect in 1888, I wonder why, does it make him more viable?

Suppose, for the sake of accuracy, we inserted a "years later", into the sentence, ie; "If he were named as a suspect years later....." , would that weaken his candidacy?, darn right it would!
If we call it like it is, there would be no need for laughter in either camp.



Abberline was also senior detective on the case, so how should we view Chapman's candidacy?

Regards, Jon S.

Hello Jon,

Thank you. Well said indeed.

Calling it like it is isn't popular Jon...like I said... it isn't going to go down well, that Dr Batty Tuke posting.

Now watch the excuses pile up.

"Years later"... and not an AARON to be seen.


best wishes

Phil