Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob,

I'm going off your reply to Scott Nelson regarding Anderson having said that Koz was identified during the house to house search. You brought up the Batty Street incident. Are you suggesting that Koz was the West End tailor, or in some other way, the Batty Street incident is when he first came to police notice? I know you discuss this in your book (which unfortunately not everyone has read), but do you think this was the SPECIFIC INCIDENT or was he pointed out by neighbors?.

Hi Scott,

Same question.

Wick,

There had to have been reasons prior to the ID for the police to suspect Koz as the Ripper, or else why the ID? Plus, Mac said said there were factors (plural) that drove suspicion against Koz. It may simply have been his close proximity to Berner Street and some crazed confessions, which were quite common at the time. But combining that with an ID by one of their strongest witnesses was enough to send Anderson over the edge, for Swanson the lapdog to defend the theory without endorsing it, and for Mac, who thought the whole thing bollocks, to politely include the theory as viable while pointing out that the evidence against Koz was substantially weaker (in his mind) than that against Druitt, which was purely based on hearsay and the timing of a suicide.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

My suspicion, Jon, has long been that Kosminski simply fitted the preconceived notions that Anderson had developed with regard to the wanted man. He was Jewish, mentally unstable, lived in the immediate neighbourhood, had a family that might have been seen as protecting him, and was said to have practised ‘self abuse’.

Quite possibly Garry.
Should we ask whether Anderson's "profile" evolved from his suspicions of Kosminski, or, as you say, Kosminski appeared to fit that preconception?
If the former, then once again we are left to ask, what were those suspicions based on, and how early did he have them?

Beyond this there appears to have been little or no evidence against him. There couldn’t have been, otherwise the entire case wouldn’t have rested on an eyewitness identification.

Agreed!

Remember too that the City investigation failed to convince Major Smith of Kosminski’s guilt. The round the clock surveillance apparently uncovered nothing incriminating.

Correct, no matter which way we look there is nothing to substantiate the claims by Anderson & Swanson when applied to the fall of 1888.
Later maybe, but how much later, and why?

Regards, Jon S.

[robhouse]

I'm going off your reply to Scott Nelson regarding Anderson having said that Koz was identified during the house to house search. You brought up the Batty Street incident. Are you suggesting that Koz was the West End tailor, or in some other way, the Batty Street incident is when he first came to police notice? I know you discuss this in your book (which unfortunately not everyone has read), but do you think this was the SPECIFIC INCIDENT or was he pointed out by neighbors?.

Well, I think it is a possibility. Honestly, it is difficult to make any sense of it, but it is odd. So many of the factors of that suspect seem to fit Kozminski and his family.

I think it is possible he was looked at as a suspect at that time... and possibly something happened later that made the police take him more seriously as a suspect. For example, an informant.

The answer, in short, is: I don't know.

RH

[Wickerman]

There had to have been reasons prior to the ID for the police to suspect Koz as the Ripper, or else why the ID?

Yes, thats the question being posed.

The fact an I.D. was thought necessary could be less significant than the reason the I.D. was arranged in the first place.
However, as Garry said, the fact it failed and in consequence killed off any line of investigation tends to suggest the reason for the I.D. was probably, ...built on sand.

Regards, Jon S.

[Paddy]

Hi All, Changing the subject for a moment

Can anybody tell me did the police ever locate Pipeman? Nothing to do with the witness or anything , I just wondered,

Pat..................

[Errata]

Quite possibly Garry.
Should we ask whether Anderson's "profile" evolved from his suspicions of Kosminski, or, as you say, Kosminski appeared to fit that preconception?
If the former, then once again we are left to ask, what were those suspicions based on, and how early did he have them?

I was going to say that a profile seems consistent with him being a suspect, because how many insane Jews could there be?

And then I thought of my family. And the entire week it would have taken to shuffle all the crazy ones past a witness.

So really the question when then be, what makes Kos stand out from all the other crazy Jews? Why him, and not the twenty guys who would look vaguely like him?

[Paddy]

So really the question when then be, what makes Kos stand out from all the other crazy Jews? Why him, and not the twenty guys who would look vaguely like him?

Someone who had a place he could return to alone?
Pat
.

[Paddy]

There was a strange murder in our village years ago......Not as bad but not unlike.
The police interviewed everybody in the whole village. We all started looking around at people we knew and wondering. It seemed like they had known their way around.
Upshot of it all was they never found him but many many people pointed to an eccentric foreign man with strange ways. I didnt personally think it was him and suspected the murderer would have been younger than this 50 yr old man.
If Aaron was strange in any way you can bet your life people would have told the police. Interviewing people in thier homes is a much more informal process. Wives would have probably been allowed to give their views too...They asked us what out thoughts and views were, not who done it.

Just thought it might help to hear about a mass questioning......
Pat

[Paddy]

One last thought if the Police had to use a translator, people would be more guarded.

Pat

[mariab]

Can anybody tell me did the police ever locate Pipeman? Nothing to do with the witness or anything , I just wondered

Nope, they didn't, and not for lack of trying.

[Errata]

So really the question when then be, what makes Kos stand out from all the other crazy Jews? Why him, and not the twenty guys who would look vaguely like him?

Someone who had a place he could return to alone?
Pat
.

Did he? I thought he spent a significant amount of time homeless.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

My point was that the witness was possibly not so sure of his identification, so forcing him to testify wouldn't have resulted in a conviction anyway. Again, just speculation.

I should have been clearer. I'm agreeing with you, postulating that Lawende didn't flat out refuse on religious grounds, which might have proven inconvenient to his citizenship case a few years later. I'm guessing he was fully cooperative but said he wasn't certain. Perhaps his uncertainty was enhanced by the notion that a conviction might have had bitter implications for East End Jewry.

Kinda makes common sense, which of course has no bearing here.

[Paddy]

Errata

Quite possibly but I just dont see him as a tramp earlier on, maybe later. Wonder where he stashed his trophys?

Or he could have been on this list?

[Jonathan H]

Two Circuit-Breaker Questions:

I throw these speculative questions to all comers:


1. At the time did the Kosminski family, or certain members -- or just one -- know, or believe, that their Aaron was likely the Ripper, and that he had been positively identified by a Jewish witness (who would not testify against a fellow Hebrew)? eg. did they know that he had been taken to the Seaside Home, a police hospital outside of London, for this calamitous (from their point of view) official identification?


2. Assuming that members of the Kosminski family were in-the-know, that their sectioned member was a notorious killer, would they have recognised their [un-named] Aaron in the writings of Griffiths, Sims, and most significantly the public comments and memoirs of Sir Robert Anderson?


Obviously the answers can only be speculative -- yet I think such analytical exertions could prove productive:

[Chris]

Did he? I thought he spent a significant amount of time homeless.

There's not much evidence about where he lived, but I don't think there's any evidence that he was ever homeless.