Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Not a bad idea at all, Phil.

But then we have to fit a policeman to the scenario, and no such thing appears at the inquest.

A more simple explanation is that which Anderson tells us: "our diagnosis was proven correct on every count". A cornerstone of the diagnosis was the idea that Jack was being protected. You don't have to add anything else, such as finding a policeman to connect the dots; you simply have to believe what Anderson tells us to deduce that his family alerted the police to Kosminski because of what they knew.

[Fisherman]

SAlly:

"Goodbye Fisherman."


... she said, and left without once having commented on the issue at hand, instead opting for bickering about totally non-threadrelated matters. And I know I should be happy, since that is what she does best ...

Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

Not a bad idea at all, Phil.

But then we have to fit a policeman to the scenario, and no such thing appears at the inquest.

A more simple explanation is that which Anderson tells us: "our diagnosis was proven correct on every count". A cornerstone of the diagnosis was the idea that Jack was being protected. You don't have to add anything else, such as finding a policeman to connect the dots; you simply have to believe what Anderson tells us to deduce that his family alerted the police to Kosminski because of what they knew.

Just to add......unless, of course, it was Halse.

Or even one of the police officers at Bernet Street when there were numerous people in the yard. I know some were checked for blood, such as Spooner, perhaps they checked Jack and found no blood but a police officer remembered the face.

Still think the family option is an easier one to believe, but your idea isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

[Fisherman]

Rob!

This is a gem: ""Insanity Amongst the Jews," by Cecil F. Beadles, a doctor at Colney Hatch in the 1890s".

Was Beadle of the meaning that there were types of insanity that were typical to Jews - not a race as such but instead people confessing to the Jewish faith. Or was he specifically speaking of the semite people?

No matter what, what was the doctorīs main ideas here; could you outline it very shortly?

The best,
Fisherman

[robhouse]

He was a man who liked to keep secrets or liked people to think he knew more than they did. For me this is more evidence for suspicion that his revelation was something other than true.

The problem with this line of thinking is the Swanson marginalia... which is why people who promote other suspects are so "interested" shall we say, in discrediting the marginalia. Trevor Marriot for example.

His religeous beliefs would not make him a supporter of Jews, the opposite in fact. Any thoughts?

Anderson wrote: "With reference to “Mentor’s” comments on my statements about the “Whitechapel murders” of 1888 in this month’s Blackwood, will you allow me to express the severe distress I feel that my words should be construed as “an aspersion upon Jews.” For much that I have written in my various books gives proof of my sympathy with, and interest in, “the people of the Covenant”; and I am happy in reckoning members of the Jewish community in London among my personal friends." [emphasis mine]

John Malcolm has read many of Anderson's religious writings, so he might be able to answer this more specifically.

RH

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac:

"Anderson had his views, not necessarily borne out of racism"

Racism back then was practically non-existant. It was not racism to state a number of very generalizing things about different "races" - it was science. Notice that Rob just quoted a book called "Insanity Amongst the Jews," by Cecil F. Beadles, a doctor at Colney Hatch in the 1890s. This sort of stuff would have been very common. Ideas of racial biology and typification flourished, etcetera. This is important to the issue.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood Mac:

"Anderson had his views, not necessarily borne out of racism"

Racism back then was practically non-existant. It was not racism to state a number of very generalizing things about different "races" - it was science. Notice that Rob just quoted a book called "Insanity Amongst the Jews," by Cecil F. Beadles, a doctor at Colney Hatch in the 1890s. This sort of stuff would have been very common. Ideas of racial biology and typification flourished, etcetera. This is important to the issue.

The best,
Fisherman

I don't think it's important to the issue.

Anderson qualified why he felt the culprit was a Jew.

And it wasn't because he felt Jewish people were more predisposed to such crimes.

It was because he concluded that Jack wasn't living alone, and from there he believed the family must have known their family member was Jack, and in his experience the Jewish population were more likely to protect someone from a court of law.

You could certainly argue that the logic was flawed, and there is one obvious problem with it: that being that there were a few shifty characeters about who would have returned home in the early hours dishevelled, dirty and in some cases bloodied. But, I'm not following your logic that racial theories, and I believe these began in Sweden in the 1700s, are important to Anderson's statements regarding Kosminski.

[robhouse]

Rob!

This is a gem: ""Insanity Amongst the Jews," by Cecil F. Beadles, a doctor at Colney Hatch in the 1890s".

Was Beadle of the meaning that there were types of insanity that were typical to Jews - not a race as such but instead people confessing to the Jewish faith. Or was he specifically speaking of the semite people?

No matter what, what was the doctorīs main ideas here; could you outline it very shortly?

The best,
Fisherman

I did not read the entire book (it is handwritten manuscript), nor can I tell you if Beadles differentiated between "the semite people" or "people confessing to the Jewish faith." It did seem that Beadles was quite anti-Semitic, as he wrote things like this:

"We all know to what extent the insane are capable in the matter of foul language and obscene behavior, but it is doubtful if any class of patients can approach the insane Jew in either. They are disgusting to a degree. I am speaking of course of the really bad cases. Amongst the young males, onanism is practiced openly to a degree not seen amongst the non-jewish element."

It is interesting that he refers to this: "Amongst the young males, onanism is practiced openly to a degree not seen amongst the non-jewish element"... which immediately made me think of Kozminski, and the question of whether he practised onanism [masturbation] openly in the asylum.

By the way, you have not answered my previous question as to why you believe Kozminski had a low IQ.

RH

[robhouse]

Also, I should note that Cecil Beadles was one of the attendants at Colney Hatch who actually observed Aaron Kozminski, and wrote entries in his record.

RH

[Fisherman]

Thanks for this, Rob!

It goes to show very clearly what kind of time we are dealing with and what sorts of conceptions flourished. The Jews were unrivalled when it came to obscenities; they were in fact disgusting.

This said by a practicing doctor at a official asylum.

There will be more like this, for those who put their shovels in the dirt and dig around; Jews were like this, Russians like that, negroes were unintelligent, and brits were the crown of the creation. Some races were hasty, some were nasty and given to criminality.

This was not racism, mind you - it was what the common people AND the doctors and scientists believed in.

To think that it would not have coloured the hunt for the Ripper is simply untenable. And to my mind, Rob, I very much suspect that being a "mad Jew" put you on top of the suspect list very easily.

"you have not answered my previous question as to why you believe Kozminski had a low IQ."

To be perfectly honest, I canīt imagine I said something like that since I donīt know. Could you provide the post number, please?

"Also, I should note that Cecil Beadles was one of the attendants at Colney Hatch who actually observed Aaron Kozminski, and wrote entries in his record."

... and somebody Anderson consulted...?

Thanks for the information - this is very interesting.

The best,
Fisherman

[robhouse]

Thanks for this, Rob!

It goes to show very clearly what kind of time we are dealing with and what sorts of conceptions flourished. The Jews were unrivalled when it came to obscenities; they were in fact disgusting.

This said by a practicing doctor at a official asylum.

There will be more like this, for those who put their shovels in the dirt and dig around; Jews were like this, Russians like that, negroes were unintelligent, and brits were the crown of the creation. Some races were hasty, some were nasty and given to criminality.

This was not racism, mind you - it was what the common people AND the doctors and scientists believed in.

To think that it would not have coloured the hunt for the Ripper is simply untenable. And to my mind, Rob, I very much suspect that being a "mad Jew" put you on top of the suspect list very easily.

"you have not answered my previous question as to why you believe Kozminski had a low IQ."

To be perfectly honest, I canīt imagine I said something like that since I donīt know. Could you provide the post number, please?

"Also, I should note that Cecil Beadles was one of the attendants at Colney Hatch who actually observed Aaron Kozminski, and wrote entries in his record."

... and somebody Anderson consulted...?

Thanks for the information - this is very interesting.

The best,
Fisherman

Sorry. My bad. It was Lechmere who said that !

I do not think Anderson consulted Beadles (to my knowledge), although it is know that he corresponded with the superintendant of Colney Hatch with a month of Aaron's committal (which is very interesting, to my mind).

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=240412&postcount=7

RH

[Fisherman]

Rob:

"Sorry. My bad. It was Lechmere who said that !"

Thatīs a relief to hear! Well, not for Edward, perhaps ...

"I do not think Anderson consulted Beadles (to my knowledge), although it is know that he corresponded with the superintendant of Colney Hatch with a month of Aaron's committal (which is very interesting, to my mind)."

Aha. Well, irrespective of whether he shared information with Anderson or not, I think the point needs to be made that there were people like Beadles in charge on important posts in society, who actually regarded Jews as some sort of vermin, more or less. Not all of them, obviously (well...), but what we today would regard as ridiculously racist perceptions were passed off quite legitimately. One can easily imagine that with men like Beadles in charge of important assessions of patients of other descents than the British one, a man like Kosminski could count on no favours at all. A man unrivalled in obscenities, a disgusting man as it were, would not end up at the bottom of the list over possible miscreants in the sexually coloured branches.

Once again, to take nothing away from your research, I am not here talking about the specific bits and pieces that may once have pointed in Aaronīs direction, but instead of the typification of races that was obviously quite general among people, common men and society pillars alike.

All the best, Rob!
Fisherman

[miakaal4]

To Fmac,
Yeah I see that. But he was thinking of a particular Polish Jew. It seems to be that Kosminski was putting himself about in that area. People saw him, some saw him misbehaving, I think there is a good chance he was seen in the area at the right times too, but all this weakens the case against him. If and it is a big if, he was known locally as a bit strange because of his eating and drinking habits, would not one witness come out an say,"Hey that man with the victim...I know him, he's that bloke that eats food from the gutter!"?

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac:

"I don't think it's important to the issue."

I do.

"Anderson qualified why he felt the culprit was a Jew. And it wasn't because he felt Jewish people were more predisposed to such crimes."

Not as such, no. But he may have focused on Jews from the outset, courtesy of the widespread racism prevailing.

I know there is that text where Anderson answers a Rabbi, and says that he has always had the utmost respect for the Jewish people or something such - but the background here is alarming anyway. Once a whole society shares the belief that Jews are not really as good as Brits, then that will colour most peopleīs views.

"It was because he concluded that Jack wasn't living alone, and from there he believed the family must have known their family member was Jack, and in his experience the Jewish population were more likely to protect someone from a court of law."

Which was a shameful prejudice, according to the self same Rabbi! And that has me thinking ...

"I'm not following your logic that racial theories, and I believe these began in Sweden in the 1700s"

If that was so, then itīs kept well away from the common Swedish knowledge! This is from the net:

"CLR James Modern Politics writes that 'the conception of dividing people by race begins with its slave trade. Thus this (the slave trade) was so shocking, so opposed to all the conceptions of society which religious and philosophers had . . .the only justifications by which humanity could face it was to divide people into races and decide that Africans were an inferior race"

So racism was formed as an attempt to justify the most appalling and inhuman treatment of black people in the time of the greatest accumulation of material wealth the world had seen until then.

By the end of the 17th century, racism had become an established, systematic and conscious justification for the most degrading forms of slavery.

The justification of slavery by an ideology of racism started to fade under attack by abolotionists and with the decline of the slave trade. Racism, however took on a new form as a justification for the ideology of imperialism. This racism of empire was dominant for over a century from the 1840's on. Concepts such as the "white man's burden" became fashionable especially in England where British Colonialists liked to cast themselves as father and mother with a clear duty to take responsibility for the material and spiritual well-being of their 'colonial' children. Racism became the ideological justification of capitalism's expansion into conquering countries, plundering their wealth and exploiting the natives.

When white imperialism was at its height, a new expression of racism was taking shape - that is anti-immigrant racism which was typified in England by racist opposition to new immigrants from Ireland."

Of Sweden it is said that we traded with slaves in the 18:th century, and so we will not be without guilt. But the slavery as such seems to be the starting point, and we were not the first country to set that ball in motion!

Back to Kos!

The best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi Rob,

Anderson writing on 7th March 1891 to the Medical Superintendent at Colney Hatch regarding George Hall should not be construed as an endorsement of the belief that Scotland Yard may have informed the asylum that it believed Aaron Kosminski to have been the Ripper.

After all, exactly two months later, on 7th May 1891, Macnaghten wrote an almost identical letter regarding Michael Ostrog to Dr. T. Claye Shaw, Principal and Medical Superintendent at Banstead Lunatic Asylum, Surrey.

And we all know where Ostrog was during the Whitechapel murders.

Regards,

Simon