The `Reverand Dott letter to Australia

[Sam Flynn]

I agree that the letter doesn't really tell us anything new. But isn't this a small point in favour of its authenticity? If you were a forger trying to make a splash, wouldn't you write something more sensational such as, "There's a local man called Kosminski who's well known to be violent, he's been seen with blood all over him after some of the murders and his own family are privately admitting that they think he's Jack the Ripper"?

Saying as much would be too good to be true, and would attract suspicion. Up till now, we have no contemporary (or near-contemporary) evidence that Kosminski was actually violent towards women, but this letter does just enough to provide such evidence, without setting off too many alarm-bells.

[Abby Normal]

Fish we are going to have to disagree if you thought that Jack was a cool calculating killer, in virtually all his kills [talking C5 and Tabram here], there was enormous risk. Doesn't the FBI report on Jack pin him down as a disorganised personality? You say - who turns into a meek and generally totally harmless schizophrenic. Yet this same schizophrenic attacks women [if the letter is to be believed] , and his sister, he is also put on some form of ID with great difficulty, we don't know what the difficulty is but he could have shown some violent form of resistance? What we do know is - In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch, Swansons words. Doesn't sound very meek and harmless when taken off the streets.

We always seem to have the idea that the police were looking just at people who were wandering the streets aimlessly with a vacant look in their eyes. Yet Pizer was their Num 1 suspect for a while. He wasn't meek and harmless. In fact to me the police looked at all angles, yes including people who had just recently been released from an asylum but people like Jacob Isenschmid had shown violent behaviour. Even today with the advances in treatment for schizophrenic individuals [ none of this available in Victorian London], we still here cases of people being let out back into society deemed cured only for them to attack and kill again, and sometimes very shortly after release.

One last point when Kosminski was taken to the asylum the case notes are from what they have been told, eating out of the gutter etc. I have often wondered if they are wholly truthful. Kosminski's family if they suspected him of being Jack would want him put away for good but possibly not want the shame that he was one of their family and the repercussions that could bring. Maybe they embellished some of the details regarding his mental state.
Regards Darryl

Hi DK
I don't see any dis organized behavior with the ripper. On the contrary, except for maybe the stride attack where I believe he simply lost his temper.

[Darryl Kenyon]

[B]Swanson DID misremember - or was not in the know - about some parts, we know that much.

From the wikipedia entry on Swanson - On 15 September 1888 Commissioner Sir Charles Warren issued a memorandum to Dr. Robert Anderson, Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID), placing Swanson in overall charge of the investigation into the murder of Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street, Spitalfields. Swanson was freed from all other duties and given his own office at Scotland Yard from which to co-ordinate inquiries. He was given permission to see "every paper, every document, every report [and] every telegram" concerning the investigation.^[4] As subsequent murders were committed in the Whitechapel Murders series Swanson remained ‘in situ’ - gaining a mass of knowledge and information about the killings.

So what parts was he not in the know about Fish?
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

If the police arresting Kosminski had heard been told that he had threatened his sister with a knife, that may have been enough for him to take precautions n ot to get harmed himself.

I am not sure if I follow this? Are you saying Kosminski asked to have his hands tied behind his back ?
Regards Darryl

[Fisherman]

From the wikipedia entry on Swanson - On 15 September 1888 Commissioner Sir Charles Warren issued a memorandum to Dr. Robert Anderson, Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police and Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID), placing Swanson in overall charge of the investigation into the murder of Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street, Spitalfields. Swanson was freed from all other duties and given his own office at Scotland Yard from which to co-ordinate inquiries. He was given permission to see "every paper, every document, every report [and] every telegram" concerning the investigation.^[4] As subsequent murders were committed in the Whitechapel Murders series Swanson remained ‘in situ’ - gaining a mass of knowledge and information about the killings.

So what parts was he not in the know about Fish?
Regards Darryl

What you post relates to the days of the investigation. But we know that he got dates concerning Kosminski wrong at a later stage. He got other things wrong too, as can be seen from the reports. Most people do.

[Darryl Kenyon]

What you post relates to the days of the investigation. But we know that he got dates concerning Kosminski wrong at a later stage. He got other things wrong too, as can be seen from the reports. Most people do.

Yes I agree, at a later stage, nobodies memory is infallible. But Kosminski was suspected of being the ripper by someone who had overall charge of the investigation. This man pooled from other lunatics, madmen psychopaths etc I simply cannot believe that he was picked on because he was the local loony eating out of the gutters.
Regards Darryl

[Fisherman]

Yes I agree, at a later stage, nobodies memory is infallible. But Kosminski was suspected of being the ripper by someone who had overall charge of the investigation. This man pooled from other lunatics, madmen psychopaths etc I simply cannot believe that he was picked on because he was the local loony eating out of the gutters.
Regards Darryl

But you are aware that for example Ostrog was ALSO singled out by a police official of the same standing as Anderson and Swanson - and that in HIS case, there seems to have been nothing at all to confirm that he was the sexually driven, crafty and dangerous madman that MacNaghten claimed him to be? Maybe we should not overinvest in the infallability of these men´s noses, when it comes to sniffing out Rippers? Plus, of course, MacNaghten took over office after the Kosminskiite Anderson, the prime reason for why Kosminski is spoken about at all, and he ranked Kosminski below Druitt in terms of viability.

So we need to explain just why the man who identified Kosminski as the Ripper did not divulge the information that would have had him hung to the man to whom the overall responsibility of the Met was handed over to a few years down the line.

At the end of the day, if I am to convict somebody of murder, I am not willing to convict on information that may draw on nothing but a sense of bruised pride within a failing police bigwig. I want as much factual and circumstantial evidence as can be had, and to be frank, there is only one suspect that fits that bill. And even in his case, I would not convict - I would let him walk, albeit feeling that I let a killer loose.

[jason_c]

But you are aware that for example Ostrog was ALSO singled out by a police official of the same standing as Anderson and Swanson - and that in HIS case, there seems to have been nothing at all to confirm that he was the sexually driven, crafty and dangerous madman that MacNaghten claimed him to be? Maybe we should not overinvest in the infallability of these men´s noses, when it comes to sniffing out Rippers? Plus, of course, MacNaghten took over office after the Kosminskiite Anderson, the prime reason for why Kosminski is spoken about at all, and he ranked Kosminski below Druitt in terms of viability.

So we need to explain just why the man who identified Kosminski as the Ripper did not divulge the information that would have had him hung to the man to whom the overall responsibility of the Met was handed over to a few years down the line.

At the end of the day, if I am to convict somebody of murder, I am not willing to convict on information that may draw on nothing but a sense of bruised pride within a failing police bigwig. I want as much factual and circumstantial evidence as can be had, and to be frank, there is only one suspect that fits that bill. And even in his case, I would not convict - I would let him walk, albeit feeling that I let a killer loose.

No offence but I feel some strawmanning going on here. No-one is asking you to convict anyone. Convicting in this instance is an impossibility, both legally and physically. All that can be done in regards to identifying the ripper is to weigh possibilities and probabilities with the very limited evidence passed down to us.

IF this letter is genuine, and most of us have been around long enough to remain sceptical, then one thing this letter does partly answer is this; the letter points to the police being aware of suspicions surrounding Kosminski earlier than many had previously thought.

[jason_c]

I'm currently working my way through the thread on the other site. It seems as if the paper used to write the letter was from a ledger rather than paper normally associated with writing a letter on. If true, this rings alarm bells. As I understand it one of the major difficulties forgers have is finding suitable unused paper of the period. This is why the Maybrick diary is not written in an actual diary but in an album which once held photographs.

[Darryl Kenyon]

But you are aware that for example Ostrog was ALSO singled out by a police official of the same standing as Anderson and Swanson - and that in HIS case, there seems to have been nothing at all to confirm that he was the sexually driven, crafty and dangerous madman that MacNaghten claimed him to be? Maybe we should not overinvest in the infallability of these men´s noses, when it comes to sniffing out Rippers? Plus, of course, MacNaghten took over office after the Kosminskiite Anderson, the prime reason for why Kosminski is spoken about at all, and he ranked Kosminski below Druitt in terms of viability.

So we need to explain just why the man who identified Kosminski as the Ripper did not divulge the information that would have had him hung to the man to whom the overall responsibility of the Met was handed over to a few years down the line.

At the end of the day, if I am to convict somebody of murder, I am not willing to convict on information that may draw on nothing but a sense of bruised pride within a failing police bigwig. I want as much factual and circumstantial evidence as can be had, and to be frank, there is only one suspect that fits that bill. And even in his case, I would not convict - I would let him walk, albeit feeling that I let a killer loose.

Yes, I am aware of a document written by Macnaghten who mentions three men [one being Ostrog], who were more likely to have been the ripper instead of Cutbush. I am not aware of any writings or documents written by Swanson or Anderson who mention him as a suspect though.
Do I believe that Kosminski was the ripper? Well, I feel he is a reasonable suspect, but that's it. The reason I joined this thread is because I simply fail to believe that Kosminski was a half-witted , harmless imbecile in the autumn of 88 who Anderson and more importantly Swanson used has a form of patsy as a lot of people believe. We can argue all day if Anderson was opinionated or not but in private jottings by Swanson I believe he was sincere in what he wrote. So using that as a starting point I ask myself why Kosminski was up in court for walking an unmuzzled dog in Dec 89 and fit to plead. If he is fit to plead in 89 then it casts doubt on him being a half-witted imbecile in 88. Then we come to the letter, is it genuine? Well I, and I assume most here have their doubts, but it is worth investigating because if it is genuine it also shows that Kosminski was not the harmless feeble individual who wouldn't hurt a fly type person who again, some people feel he was.
Regards Darryl

[Ven]

Hi jason_c,

What paper was used is irrelevant. Back then paper, and many other such like items, were not as freely available as stuff is today and people used what they could... dare i say, including the album for a diary
Ven
"Hiawatha didn't bother too much"

[Sam Flynn]

Hi jason_c,

What paper was used is irrelevant. Back then paper, and many other such like items, were not as freely available as stuff is today and people used what they could... dare i say, including the album for a diary

I'm sure your average cotton merchant could have afforded a proper diary instead of a scrapbook.

[Ven]

Hi Sam, I'm not a cotton merchant from 1888, however, even if i was, an unused album to serve my compulsive purposes would be enough, even if i had to "rip" out a few pages... remember they had a re-use psychological bent even then, for monetary purposes, not to save the plane!

[Abby Normal]

The reason that this letter wasn't written on proper letter paper is probably the same reason that barret wrote the diary in scrap book instead of a diary-the fakers couldn't find the correct medium of the period to write on so went with what they could find.

[Fisherman]

If we are dealing with a fake, and if we couple that potential fake with the shawl business, I´d say that the Kosminski proponents could do without that kind of help. Wich such friends ...