A possibility for the Seaside Home?

[Monty]

Hi Monty
You know as well as I do that the police back then could not drag someone off the street, or out of their house to take part in any ID procedure. The only way it could have happened, and I doubt this very much because I dont believe it ever happened in the way described, was for Kosminski to have been arrested on suspicion, but that falls flat on its face, because there is no evidence to show that he was ever arrested, and all the rest that followed this so called positive ID is to far fetched to even consider.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yet it did happen.

I cite Arthur Harding, East End career criminal, who stated that two CID men once entered his lodgings, and his room, ordered him to dress and marched him to Commercial Street Station. Once there he was told he wasn’t there to be charged but to take part in a number of ID parades to “see if they could pick me out”*.

They didn’t.

whilst it wasn’t procedure, you know as well as I do that procedure wasn’t always adhered to.

Monty

*’My Apprenticeship into Crime (1904)- Arthur Harding, Ch8 P125.

[Trevor Marriott]

You'll have to see how Trevor responds to that, of course, although Sadler was already under arrest when allegedly confronted by Lawende, so maybe that makes a difference. Trevor ignores the statement that Kosminski was sent for identification with 'great difficulty'. Unlike Trevor, Don Rumbelow, who was also a policeman and a police historian, has said that the police would have had no difficulty whatsoever in sending a suspect in such a high profile case for identification. However, it is interesting that Kosminski was apparently sent and not taken to where he was identified, so maybe this suggests that the Met found a work-around to getting Kosminski identified without having to arrest him. Either way, whether the police would have had no difficulty in sending Kosminski for identification, or whether they used a ruse to have him identified, there is no real reason to doubt that he was identified.

Don Rumbellow was wrong he simply gave an opinion.
As I keep saying there are rules and guidelines that have to be followed.
if the police had such a good suspect why would they risk jeopardising their case by not following protocol?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PaulB]

Yes, of course Paul, but the point I am making is Trevor says Kosminski could not have forwarded for any sort of ID unless he was arrested on suspicion of being Jack. But Sadler was not arrested nor charged with Eddowes murder [only Coles], yet he was subject to some form of Id by Lawende.
Regards Darryl

You'll have to see how Trevor responds to that, of course, although Sadler was already under arrest when allegedly confronted by Lawende, so maybe that makes a difference. Trevor ignores the statement that Kosminski was sent for identification with 'great difficulty'. Unlike Trevor, Don Rumbelow, who was also a policeman and a police historian, has said that the police would have had no difficulty whatsoever in sending a suspect in such a high profile case for identification. However, it is interesting that Kosminski was apparently sent and not taken to where he was identified, so maybe this suggests that the Met found a work-around to getting Kosminski identified without having to arrest him. Either way, whether the police would have had no difficulty in sending Kosminski for identification, or whether they used a ruse to have him identified, there is no real reason to doubt that he was identified.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, of course Paul, but the point I am making is Trevor says Kosminski could not have forwarded for any sort of ID unless he was arrested on suspicion of being Jack. But Sadler was not arrested nor charged with Eddowes murder [only Coles], yet he was subject to some form of Id by Lawende.
Regards Darryl

As long as a suspect is arrested then an ID parade could take place, who the victim was that the ID is subject to was academic. Nowadays a suspect has to be arrested for each offence he is suspected off, then interviews and other procedures can take place lawfully.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Darryl Kenyon]

Anderson was commenting from a Barristers point of view when lamenting the difference between British and French police powers.

Monty

Hi Monty, I have always been interested in what powers the Victorian French police had over the British one?
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

no id say your bang on. and also that the police were probably also hoping that with a confrontation ID, of a chance that kosminski would confess.

Hi Abby, this is a fair point. I always assumed that the witness gave away something so Kosminski knew he had been identified. But perhaps the police mentioned it to him later in the hope, as you say Abby of getting a confession.
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

If Kosminski did attack his sister with a knife and somebody, perhaps his brother in law worried for his wife relayed this and his, or even the families suspicions of Kosminski being Jack would that not be enough to hold and question him with perhaps some form of ID?
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

Presumably to see if Sadler could have been the man Lawende saw?

Yes, of course Paul, but the point I am making is Trevor says Kosminski could not have forwarded for any sort of ID unless he was arrested on suspicion of being Jack. But Sadler was not arrested nor charged with Eddowes murder [only Coles], yet he was subject to some form of Id by Lawende.
Regards Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

The person of interest thang is irrelevant. The fact that there was seemingly grounds to suspect a man named Kosminski and have him identified, is.

The result of that identification does not, necessarily, have to directly result in an arrest and charge. Especially if one considers his personal situation at the time of the ID parade.

Anderson was commenting from a Barristers point of view when lamenting the difference between British and French police powers.

Monty

Hi Monty
You know as well as I do that the police back then could not drag someone off the street, or out of their house to take part in any ID procedure. The only way it could have happened, and I doubt this very much because I dont believe it ever happened in the way described, was for Kosminski to have been arrested on suspicion, but that falls flat on its face, because there is no evidence to show that he was ever arrested, and all the rest that followed this so called positive ID is to far fetched to even consider.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PaulB]

Well, Sadler was only a person of interest in the JTR murders and only charged with the murder of Francis Coles by Henry Moore on the 15 Feb. Yet on the 17 Feb it seems likely that Sadler was confronted by Joseph Lawende [A-Z, amongst others], as reported by the Telegraph. Lawende was not an eyewitness in the murder of Francis Coles,and Sadler was not charged with the murder of Catherine Eddowes, yet Lawende was still being used as a witness.
Regards Darryl

Presumably to see if Sadler could have been the man Lawende saw?

[PaulB]

The person of interest thang is irrelevant. The fact that there was seemingly grounds to suspect a man named Kosminski and have him identified, is.

The result of that identification does not, necessarily, have to directly result in an arrest and charge. Especially if one considers his personal situation at the time of the ID parade.

Anderson was commenting from a Barristers point of view when lamenting the difference between British and French police powers.

Monty

And, of course, it seems that following the identification Kosminski was returned to his brother's house and kept under surveillance. His family had him committed, thereby presumably thwarting any intention by the police of arresting and charging him. Why the police did not arrest Kosminski as soon as he had been identified isn't clear, of course, but presumably it had something to do with the witness's refusal to testify. Anderson, in The Lighter Side, seems to emphasise the eye-witness, perhaps holding his responsible.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Well, Sadler was only a person of interest in the JTR murders and only charged with the murder of Francis Coles by Henry Moore on the 15 Feb. Yet on the 17 Feb it seems likely that Sadler was confronted by Joseph Lawende [A-Z, amongst others], as reported by the Telegraph. Lawende was not an eyewitness in the murder of Francis Coles,and Sadler was not charged with the murder of Catherine Eddowes, yet Lawende was still being used as a witness.
Regards Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

e

Hello Trevor,

Are you saying that this could not have been done if Kosminski was simply a person of interest and not formally arrested?

c.d.

Exactly that would need cooperation and consent

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Monty]

e

Hello Trevor,

Are you saying that this could not have been done if Kosminski was simply a person of interest and not formally arrested?

c.d.

The person of interest thang is irrelevant. The fact that there was seemingly grounds to suspect a man named Kosminski and have him identified, is.

The result of that identification does not, necessarily, have to directly result in an arrest and charge. Especially if one considers his personal situation at the time of the ID parade.

Anderson was commenting from a Barristers point of view when lamenting the difference between British and French police powers.

Monty

[Monty]

If, as seems likely Kosminski was a suspect [Strong suspect, Mac, Suspects name, Swanson], it seems reasonable to suggest that the police would have tried questioning him. They would probably only have had a small length of time to hold him and not enough evidence to charge him originally. So they try an ID with a witness to further gather evidence. When a suspect is known but not available, IE he refuses to be put on some form of ID parade, the police can use a confrontation without the suspects consent. This is probably what happened with Kosminski. The witness was probably not certain he was the right man [for whatever reason], so the police had to let Kosminski go [not enough evidence]. Only for him to be watched afterwards, [City police, day and night, Swanson]. So his family decided the best course of action was to place him in Colney Hatch.
Is this a reasonable course of proceedings or am I missing something?
Regards Darryl

Confrontation was the most likely, as I explain in my book.

Trevor is playing by the book, however in reality the book was often ignored for the sake of results. Whether they are obtained via one route or another.

Monty