A possibility for the Seaside Home?

[Trevor Marriott]

I don`t know the legalities.
But the doctor must be able to give consent because if it was left to the family, a patient may never be deemed fit enough to stand in a line up.
But do we know if the doctor refused ?

A doctor can give his consent for him to be removed but is the person then capabale of being able to then give their own consent. You cant just stick someone on an Id parade

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[Darryl Kenyon]

Also the two places I mentioned were in City territory [Kate's murder was their case so to speak, watched by City police day and night], not far from were Lawende lived, also not far from were Mitre square is so somewhere you would possibly expect someone of the appearance of a Sailor to reside.
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

thanks Jon

Darryl specifically mentions these possibilities:


how would any of these places fit with what you say in regards to koz?
and or what connections would the police or lawende have with any of these places? could lawende have been ill and staying here?[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Hi Abby, my feeling is Kos was sent to a Sailors lodging house or Seamans mission in Whitechapel for ID to give the ID more veracity. In other words Lawende specifically says, according to an internal memo by Swanson that Lawende thought the person he saw in Church passage had the appearance of a Sailor. Kos was probably too far gone to attend a normal ID parade. So if he is confronted by people who were Sailors, at a Sailors home one at a time and then is confronted by Kos who he thinks is his man it would lend the whole ID scenario a certain respectfulness. It would also explain why he didn't know Kos was a Jew to start with.
The reason I mention the two dwellings - Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum is that they were connected, one built after the other and mainly because Anderson said in his autobiography that the witness was identified after he was in an asylum, [obviously different from Swanson's notes]. I know this is clutching at straws a little but could he have misremembered it as being identified in the Destitute Sailors' Asylum. It wasn't an asylum as such, more a place were homeless Seamen could have a bed for the night but it did bear the name asylum.
Regards Darryl

[Jon Guy]

There is no evidence to suggest the situation ever presented itself in the first place. For him to have been taken anywhere he would have to have been first arrested. you cant just drag someone off the street, or from their home, or a hospital and transport them to some place and then subject them to an ID procedure. Such actions would prejudice any future proceedings. Not to mention the direct confrontation ID parade.

You can drag someone off the street and put them in medical care. This is exactly what was done with Kosminski, by his family !!
But, we are not talking about an ID parade, it was a case of him being confronted by a witness.

[Trevor Marriott]

I don`t know the legalities.
But the doctor must be able to give consent because if it was left to the family, a patient may never be deemed fit enough to stand in a line up.
But do we know if the doctor refused ?

There is no evidence to suggest the situation ever presented itself in the first place. For him to have been taken anywhere he would have to have been first arrested. you cant just drag someone off the street, or from their home, or a hospital and transport them to some place and then subject them to an ID procedure. Such actions would prejudice any future proceedings. Not to mention the direct confrontation ID parade.

Here are the guidelines with regard to ID parades from the Victorian Codes of Practice
1. It is of the utmost importance that the identification of a person who may be charged with a criminal offence should be conducted in the fairest possible manner. (Direct confrontation is not fair) my words
2. With this end in view the following procedure should be observed :

(a)	The officer in charge of the case against the prisoner, although present, should take no part in the particular proceedings connected with the identification, which should be carried out by the officer on duty in charge of the station or court.
(b)	The witnesses should not be allowed to see the accused before he is placed with others for the purpose of identification, nor should they be shown photographs of him or verbal or written descriptions.
(c)	The accused should be placed among a number of persons (not police)—eight or more, of similar age, height, general appearance, and class of life. He should be invited to stand where he pleases among them, and to change his position after each witness has been called in. He should be asked if he has any objection to any of the persons present, or the arrangements made, and, if he wishes, his solicitor or a friend actually in attendance may be allowed to be present.
(d)	The witnesses should be brought in one by one, and be directed to touch the person they identify. On leaving they should not be allowed to communicate with any other witness in waiting.
(e)	Every circumstance attending the identification should be carefully noted by the officer carrying it out, and whether the accused be identified or not, care being taken that when a witness fails to identify the fact should be as carefully recorded with name and address as in the contrary case—the object being that no subsequent allegation of unfairness can lie.
(f)	Any statement made by the person suspected must be recorded at once and read over to the officer in charge of the case in the presence of the prisoner, who should be invited to sign it.

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[Jon Guy]

If he was under a doctor for mental health issues then the question of consent would apply. A doctor could not give consent on behalf of a patient and i doubt a doctor would allow him to be taken out for such a purpose.

I don`t know the legalities.
But the doctor must be able to give consent because if it was left to the family, a patient may never be deemed fit enough to stand in a line up.
But do we know if the doctor refused ?

[Jon Guy]

but your back to the polices seaside home. im asking about the two closer places Darryl mentioned :[/FONT][/COLOR]

to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock

[/LEFT]

Ah, I`m sorry. Those two places were just cheap lodging houses for sailors in between voyages.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

My totally unqualified guess would be that KOS had rights as a patient (like Isenscmidt, whose doctor refused the police attempts to put him a line up) and something was set up where the police offer Kosminski (through his doctor or family) a short stay in a police home by the sea and the police witness is wheeled in.

thanks Jon

a short stay in a police home by the sea

but your back to the polices seaside home. im asking about the two closer places Darryl mentioned :

to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock S

whats the connection of the police lawende or kos to these?

[Trevor Marriott]

there is no doubt that an ID took place, that it was koz, the witness lawende and it took place at some kind of sea/sailors home. If Darryl is correct, and its as good an explanation as any, my question would be why at sailors home? what connection would lawende the police or koz have to this place?

But its not the right explanation !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Or... Kosminski was under the orders of a doctor, which would explain sent by us with difficulty. The police faced similar difficulties identifying Isenschmidt whilst he was under protection of doctors.

If he was under a doctor for mental health issues then the question of consent would apply. A doctor could not give consent on behalf of a patient and i doubt a doctor would allow him to be taken out for such a purpose.

There is no evidence to show that the Kosminski mentioned was even Aaron ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

thanks Jon

Darryl specifically mentions these possibilities:


how would any of these places fit with what you say in regards to koz?
and or what connections would the police or lawende have with any of these places? could lawende have been ill and staying here?[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

Hi Abby

My totally unqualified guess would be that KOS had rights as a patient (like Isenscmidt, whose doctor refused the police attempts to put him a line up) and something was set up where the police offer Kosminski (through his doctor or family) a short stay in a police home by the sea and the police witness is wheeled in.

[Abby Normal]

Sailors Homes were places near the docks that sailors could stay in between voyages
Seaside Homes were places for recuperation by the seaside, fresh air etc
If Kosminski was ill.... ?

thanks Jon

Darryl specifically mentions these possibilities:

to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock S

how would any of these places fit with what you say in regards to koz?
and or what connections would the police or lawende have with any of these places? could lawende have been ill and staying here?

[Jon Guy]

there is no doubt that an ID took place, that it was koz, the witness lawende and it took place at some kind of sea/sailors home. If Darryl is correct, and its as good an explanation as any, my question would be why at sailors home? what connection would lawende the police or koz have to this place?

Sailors Homes were places near the docks that sailors could stay in between voyages
Seaside Homes were places for recuperation by the seaside, fresh air etc
If Kosminski was ill.... ?

[Abby Normal]

there is no doubt that an ID took place, that it was koz, the witness lawende and it took place at some kind of sea/sailors home. If Darryl is correct, and its as good an explanation as any, my question would be why at sailors home? what connection would lawende the police or koz have to this place?

[Harry D]

In that case MM would have known about it as would others who were involved and he would have mentioned the ID parade in his Memo when he discussed Sadler suspect status.

Sadler was never identified !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Don't split hairs. I meant that Sadler was subject to an identification.

Of course, if Lawende DID identify Kosminski, it poses the question as to who identified William Grainger in 1895. If The Pall Mall Gazette is to be believed, this witness identified Grainger as the same person they saw that night. It wouldn't make sense for them to use Lawende again if he had already identified Kosminski.