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  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

    Another example of how the marginalia is flawed and unsafe ! I guess we are going to see a host of scenarios to negate this, and still try to prop up Kosminski as a suspect?

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
    What are you talking about?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by PaulB View Post

      What are you talking about?
      Exactly what I have always maintained, the Marginalia is flawed, and Adam Woods statement confirms that. Swanson as a source is unreliable !

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

      Comment


      • Originally posted by PaulB View Post
        Adam then pays homage to Martin, saying that there was a suspect who did die soon after being committed, and he says he wasn't recorded under the name of Kosminski but as David Cohen. Then there's what appears to me to be messy bit which sound to me like an attempt to simply explain Martin's confusion hypothesis, '“There were many Kosminskis living in Whitechapel at the time and it’s just possible that Cohen’s name was recorded incorrectly when he was admitted, because by all accounts he had to be restrained when he came in.”" But Adam then discounts this, saying that Swanson "knew more about this case than anyone connected with it. He’s not going to make a mistake with a name or identification." The crucial bit being the words I have italicised. Isn't that Adam specifically denying that Swanson would have made a mistake with a name or identification?

        I've tried to give the David Cohen theory 'air time' more times than I care to remember and unsurprisingly journalists never get it right...
        ​​
        Paul

        First of all

        "it's just possible that Cohen's name was recorded incorrectly when he was admitted, because he had to be restrained when he came in" because there were many Kosminski's living in Whitechapel at the time"?

        So, If I now understand this.. Kosminski, a popular, and known name at the time, could not be understood and therefore "its just possible" Cohens name was recorded incorrectly? Meaning Cohens name was really Kosminski?

        So, what I'm being told is that David Cohen's real name was Kosminski?

        It can't be the other way around then, of course, that Kosminskis real name was David Cohen, right?

        Glad that's all sorted out.

        Because.. "its just possible" that Cohens "real name" wasn't Kosminski at all. Under the same premise, that he had to be restrained when he came in to the asylum. Unless there's a heck of a lot of proof.. "its just possible" sounds like a desperate attempt to marry up a theory with a name.

        Unless, that is, someone is trying to explain the marginalia by fitting up the likeliest person that wasn't really named Cohen. Sounds like "it's just possible".....

        And I do wonder something. I do hope someone has informed Nevil Swanson that his repeated, on camera, claims, and in the media, that AARON Kosminski was "Jack the Ripper" is wrong. Because Aaron lived way into 1919. So "Cohen/Kosminski who died in the asylum in 1889, cannot have been Aaron, can he?
        Wonder what first name this unknown Kosminski/Cohen had? It wasn't Aaron.

        Oh, and I'm glad you've informed us with your last comments, that it was the journalist who "misinterpreted" Adam Wood. Not us. Thank you.
        Funny. I thought the journalist didn't do that. But hey. There you go.


        Phil

        Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


        Justice for the 96 = achieved
        Accountability? ....

        Comment


        • Originally posted by PaulB View Post
          Help. I'm lost. I can't see where Adam suggests that David Cohen was Swanson's suspect? There's the bit where Adam says Swanson said that the suspect died soon after being committed, and acknowledges that Aaron Kosminski lived until 1919. Adam then pays homage to Martin, saying that there was a suspect who did die soon after being committed, and he says he wasn't recorded under the name of Kosminski but as David Cohen. Then there's what appears to me to be messy bit which sound to me like an attempt to simply explain Martin's confusion hypothesis, '“There were many Kosminskis living in Whitechapel at the time and it’s just possible that Cohen’s name was recorded incorrectly when he was admitted, because by all accounts he had to be restrained when he came in.”" But Adam then discounts this, saying that Swanson "knew more about this case than anyone connected with it. He’s not going to make a mistake with a name or identification." The crucial bit being the words I have italicised. Isn't that Adam specifically denying that Swanson would have made a mistake with a name or identification?

          I've tried to give the David Cohen theory 'air time' more times than I care to remember and unsurprisingly journalists never get it right, so much so that it's a standing joke with Keith and myself. If I'd been Adam I don't think I'd have even tried. It always turns into a mess.

          Anyway, is this the bit that's causing the fuss, or is there a statement elsewhere in the article that I've missed?
          Hi Paul

          from the article

          .........
          But Adam maintains one suspect does almost perfectly fit Donald’s description of the Ripper.

          He says: “There was an inmate who was taken into the asylum and died shortly afterwards just as Donald said.

          “But he wasn’t recorded under the name of Kosminski but as David Cohen. Cohen fits exactly what Swanson said and was also extremely violent. He fits the image of what you’d imagine Jack The Ripper would be like
          ........

          It clearly suggests that these are Adam's claims,no mention of this being a thirty year old theory .

          This is then followed by a supposed name mix up which in turn leads to Swanson couldn't get the name wrong. This implies that the asylum got the name wrong and not Swanson .
          Adam could, of course ,have been misquoted.
          we shall have to wait

          Regards
          Nick
          You can lead a horse to water.....

          Comment


          • Investigation of names in asylums or - even worse - in informal scribblings of noble gentlemen posing as "detectives" is one approach.
            Investigation of agendas in lodging houses round the corner of the murder sites is another approach.
            130 years of dead-end worse than a Win95 without CTRL-ALT-DEL speaks volumes.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
              Wonder what first name this unknown Kosminski/Cohen had? It wasn't Aaron.
              Hi Phil,

              Could his name have been Aaron David Cohen?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by packers stem View Post

                Hi Paul

                from the article

                .........
                But Adam maintains one suspect does almost perfectly fit Donald’s description of the Ripper.

                He says: “There was an inmate who was taken into the asylum and died shortly afterwards just as Donald said.

                “But he wasn’t recorded under the name of Kosminski but as David Cohen. Cohen fits exactly what Swanson said and was also extremely violent. He fits the image of what you’d imagine Jack The Ripper would be like
                ........

                It clearly suggests that these are Adam's claims,no mention of this being a thirty year old theory .

                This is then followed by a supposed name mix up which in turn leads to Swanson couldn't get the name wrong. This implies that the asylum got the name wrong and not Swanson .
                Adam could, of course ,have been misquoted.
                we shall have to wait

                Regards
                Nick
                Ah, right. Well, my reading of that is Adam being honest and pointing out that Aaron Kosminski did not die soon after committal and recognising that David Cohen did. He then very clearly states that Swanson wouldn't have got such a thing as a name wrong. If anyone reads it differently, Adam is easily contactable. They could ask him?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post

                  Paul

                  First of all

                  "it's just possible that Cohen's name was recorded incorrectly when he was admitted, because he had to be restrained when he came in" because there were many Kosminski's living in Whitechapel at the time"?

                  So, If I now understand this.. Kosminski, a popular, and known name at the time, could not be understood and therefore "its just possible" Cohens name was recorded incorrectly? Meaning Cohens name was really Kosminski?

                  So, what I'm being told is that David Cohen's real name was Kosminski?

                  It can't be the other way around then, of course, that Kosminskis real name was David Cohen, right?

                  Glad that's all sorted out.

                  Because.. "its just possible" that Cohens "real name" wasn't Kosminski at all. Under the same premise, that he had to be restrained when he came in to the asylum. Unless there's a heck of a lot of proof.. "its just possible" sounds like a desperate attempt to marry up a theory with a name.

                  Unless, that is, someone is trying to explain the marginalia by fitting up the likeliest person that wasn't really named Cohen. Sounds like "it's just possible".....

                  And I do wonder something. I do hope someone has informed Nevil Swanson that his repeated, on camera, claims, and in the media, that AARON Kosminski was "Jack the Ripper" is wrong. Because Aaron lived way into 1919. So "Cohen/Kosminski who died in the asylum in 1889, cannot have been Aaron, can he?
                  Wonder what first name this unknown Kosminski/Cohen had? It wasn't Aaron.

                  Oh, and I'm glad you've informed us with your last comments, that it was the journalist who "misinterpreted" Adam Wood. Not us. Thank you.
                  Funny. I thought the journalist didn't do that. But hey. There you go.


                  Phil
                  Wishful thinking on your part, I think, as you try to turn another tiny molehill into a mountain. The Cohen theory as presented by Martin Fido depended on a K-something-ski name being misheard or otherwise rendered 'Cohen'. Adam was generously and honestly making reference to and paraphrasing Martin's theory, a nice gesture in view of Martin's tragic recent death.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                    Exactly what I have always maintained, the Marginalia is flawed, and Adam Woods statement confirms that. Swanson as a source is unreliable !

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                    Adam Wood is referencing the thirty year old David Cohen theory. Nothing he said suggests the marginalia is flawed or that Swanson is unreliable. In fact, the whole article is about how good a copper Swanson was.
                    Last edited by PaulB; 08-27-2019, 05:52 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                      Hi Phil,

                      Could his name have been Aaron David Cohen?
                      Wasn't his name Aaron Davis Cohen, not Aaron David Cohen.

                      Comment


                      • Or Aaron Davis Kosminski ?!

                        Maybe Swanson knew (and he musd have known since they investigated the whole area) that there was another Aaron kosminski who was insane too, and thats why he didn't give a first name?



                        The Baron

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by PaulB View Post

                          Adam Wood is referencing the thirty year old David Cohen theory. Nothing he said suggests the marginalia is flawed or that Swanson is unreliable. In fact, the whole article is about how good a copper Swanson was.
                          He doesnt have to suggest it,its there for all to read, and make their own judgments, not just on that one article, but looking at the overall picture regarding all that we have been speaking about over the past 24 hours with regards to this ID issue.

                          Now I see its started all over again with explanations from researchers saying that Aaron Kosminski was David Cohen, when will it ever end ?

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by PaulB View Post

                            Wishful thinking on your part, I think, as you try to turn another tiny molehill into a mountain. The Cohen theory as presented by Martin Fido depended on a K-something-ski name being misheard or otherwise rendered 'Cohen'. Adam was generously and honestly making reference to and paraphrasing Martin's theory, a nice gesture in view of Martin's tragic recent death.
                            David Cohen was admitted to Stepney Workhouse on December 21st 1888 having been found wandering the streets unable to care for himself. He was later transferred to Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum where he remained until his death in October 1889. Whilst in the asylum he showed signs of violence towards his fellow inmates and as a result was segregated. Fido suggests that the authorities could not establish his true identity on arrest and therefore gave him a “John Doe” name of Cohen, which Fido suggests was common practice. However, there are no official records to show this was common practice.

                            According to Fido, this name was used from time to time by immigration authorities both here and in New York. However, Fido’s suggestion doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny by reason of the fact that Cohen apparently had a known address of 86, Leman Street, Whitechapel, and was known to be a tailor, so formally identifying him in my opinion should not have been a major problem. Furthermore, there was a due process of law in 1888 with regards to dealing with insane persons and lunatics.

                            Following an arrest and after being taken to a workhouse a person could only be lawfully detained for three days and then had to be taken before a justice to determine whether that person should be released or further detained. The Justice of the Peace had the power to authorize a doctor to carry out a full mental assessment.

                            Having regard to the time he is alleged to have spent incarcerated I would have expected the workhouse and asylum authorities, and the police to make some attempt to identify an allegedly nameless man under their care. After all this unidentified man Fido suggests was given the name Cohen must have been somebody’s son, father or brother and for that person to suddenly disappear without any further trace is almost unimaginable, and I am sure the family of such a man would be seeking him out.

                            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                              David Cohen was admitted to Stepney Workhouse on December 21st 1888 having been found wandering the streets unable to care for himself. He was later transferred to Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum where he remained until his death in October 1889. Whilst in the asylum he showed signs of violence towards his fellow inmates and as a result was segregated. Fido suggests that the authorities could not establish his true identity on arrest and therefore gave him a “John Doe” name of Cohen, which Fido suggests was common practice. However, there are no official records to show this was common practice.

                              According to Fido, this name was used from time to time by immigration authorities both here and in New York. However, Fido’s suggestion doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny by reason of the fact that Cohen apparently had a known address of 86, Leman Street, Whitechapel, and was known to be a tailor, so formally identifying him in my opinion should not have been a major problem. Furthermore, there was a due process of law in 1888 with regards to dealing with insane persons and lunatics.

                              Following an arrest and after being taken to a workhouse a person could only be lawfully detained for three days and then had to be taken before a justice to determine whether that person should be released or further detained. The Justice of the Peace had the power to authorize a doctor to carry out a full mental assessment.

                              Having regard to the time he is alleged to have spent incarcerated I would have expected the workhouse and asylum authorities, and the police to make some attempt to identify an allegedly nameless man under their care. After all this unidentified man Fido suggests was given the name Cohen must have been somebody’s son, father or brother and for that person to suddenly disappear without any further trace is almost unimaginable, and I am sure the family of such a man would be seeking him out.

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                              I'm not sure why you are telling me this. It's what I have been saying for nearly thirty years. However, Martin modified his theory from time to time, and one of the things he abandoned was the idea that 'David Cohen' was a Jewish catchall akin to 'John Doe'. This was because it was uncertain that such a name was applied to Jews with names that were difficult to understand - it was described to me by one authority as a 'pious myth'. I had also discovered that David Cohen's name had elsewhere been recorded as Aaron Davis Cohen, and it could be argued that the authorities knew well enough what his real name was, as well as his former address, his occupation, and other details. There was also a real possibility that if the Poor Jews Temporary Shelter catered for new arrivals, Cohen wasn't in the country when the murders were committed.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                                Steve,

                                Just one or two alarming things here.

                                For 31 years Family Swanson and friends have rammed down our throats "Kosminski was the suspect". Family Swanson have even gone into the media on various occasions calling the quoted suspect "Aaron Kosminski". (without one iota of proof). Now, apparently, David Cohen "fits" the description in the marginalia. But Swanson, this all encompassing policeman, not only cannot remember Jack the Rippers first name (as in Aaron), he now seemingly can't remember a far far easier name, David Cohen, to write into the marginalia.
                                I remind you. "Kosminski was the suspect" RAMMED down the throats of all for 31 years. So the marginalia is to be believed because it fits Cohen's antecedents, yet we must now ignore "Kosminski was the the suspect".. Because of a mistake in writing the wrong name down?
                                A mistake writing down Jack the Rippers name.. At least 23 years after this bloke Cohen died. THE most famous Murderer in the world.
                                No. Pigs can't fly. Sorry.

                                Phil
                                Phil, with all due respect I suggest that you may indeed misunderstood the article.
                                Adam appears to say that different things in different places.
                                It would be best not to jump to conclusions before seeing what the book actually says.


                                People could end up with egg all over their face, or not?
                                I really am disturbed by this trend( I am not saying you, but a general trend in the world) of passing judgement on work that has not been read.

                                Surely it is best to see what the work actually says?

                                Steve
                                Last edited by Elamarna; 08-27-2019, 07:47 AM.

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