ID event of Kosminski-Did it take place or not?

[Abby Normal]

It would be interesting to see how many people here think whether the ID of Aaron Kosminski took place or not. I was rather surprised to learn that many here do not beleive that the ID even took place at all, including if i am not mistaken, Mr. Evans.

I think it did:

Stated by both Anderson and Swanson
It is included as part of a series of events-sent by us.....afterwards...etc.
Includes such details as "with difficulty", "and he knew he was identified".

I also, think that more likely than not, Swanson was present.

However, i think the outcome of a very positive ID was misremembered, misinterpreted or maybe even embellished by Anderson and or Swanson.

What say you? Please- if you think it did or did not take place, give reasons.

[lynn cates]

low class reply

Hello Abby. When you mention Sir Robert, I take it you refer to a particular event which he names, and not the name "Kosminski"? So far as is known, he never got beyond, "low class Polish Jew."

Kosminski WAS named by Sir MLM and is also mentioned in the Marginalia--seemingly as an afterthought.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. When you mention Sir Robert, I take it you refer to a particular event which he names, and not the name "Kosminski"? So far as is known, he never got beyond, "low class Polish Jew."

Kosminski WAS named by Sir MLM and is also mentioned in the Marginalia--seemingly as an afterthought.

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC
Yes.

Speaking of MM. he also wrote of Kos "This individual in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

I think this statement also indicates that an ID did take place as MM probably is referring to the ID (although he appears to get the other details wrong).

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Abby. To play devil's advocate, if an ID had taken place, why talk of similarity? Why not, "This man was IDed by the City PC"?

By the way, any suggestions on whom that PC was?

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Wouldn't it be handy if it were James Harvey?

Dave

[lynn cates]

neat solution

Hello Dave. Quite. Then he could be dismissed when it was later found out that he HAD seen something at 1:42 but had perjured himself.

Unfortunately, no evidence either way.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

No, I do not believe on currently available sources that the alleged positive identification of 'Kosminski' by a treacherous, Jewish witness ever took place.

I subscribe to the brilliant theory of Stewart Evans and Don Rumbelow in 'Jack the Ripper--Scotland Yard Investigates' (2006) that it is Anderson and/or Swanson (one repeating the other's opinion) that it is the failed identification of Ripper suspect Tom Sadler and his 'confrontation' by Jewish witness Joseph Lawende being sincerely mis-remembered.

That the disappointing events of early 1891 are being revised and redacted back into late 1888.

It no more literally happened than Aaron Kosminski was sectioned in early 1889, or that he was conveniently deceased -- which arguably the same sources also mistakenly assert.

[Wickerman]

Hello Dave. Quite. Then he could be dismissed when it was later found out that he HAD seen something at 1:42 but had perjured himself.

But why perjure himself?
The same question goes for both Watkins & Harvey. There is no reason either should not tell the court if they saw a man that night.

Can you think of one?

This issue raises the story given by Sagar. That a well-dressed man was seen leaving the square that night, but Sagar implies Watkins was the man who saw him.
If Sagar's story is true, or accurate, then it suggests the police knew what Watkins saw, not that Watkins withheld information. Which, in turn, suggests he was requested to say nothing.
Which raises the ultimate question, why?

The trouble with this PC in Mitre Sq. story (Sagar-Macnaghten), we don't know which is the chicken and which is the egg.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

It would be interesting to see how many people here think whether the ID of Aaron Kosminski took place or not.

I think an ID did take place, I'm just not convinced it involved a Kosminski.

If a Kosminski was suspected, Aaron has become the convenient scape-goat because he was committed. However, Aaron was too young, either one of his older brothers fit the "middle-aged" description better than the 23 year old Aaron.

Aaron did suffer from a type of mania which according to some specialists does appear in other family members, to greater or lesser degree.
Just because he was the one who was committed does not mean he is the only family member who suffered. He may have just had more visible symptoms.
I have no reason to suspect the Kosminski's but I think too much has been made of Aaron's condition, as a result he becomes the obvious choice, but not necessarily the correct one.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

conjecture

Hello Jonathan. I think their conjecture an excellent one as well. It fits many loose pieces into the puzzle.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

weak moment

Hello Jon.

"But why perjure himself?
The same question goes for both Watkins & Harvey. There is no reason either should not tell the court if they saw a man that night.

Can you think of one?"

How about not wishing to make a weak moment of cowardice known?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

How about not wishing to make a weak moment of cowardice known?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn.

Do you remember Sagar's story? Macnaghten doesn't say anything worthwhile on this issue but Sagar tells the story of a City PC who passed a man coming out of the square..

A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square, and a few moments after fell over the body.
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905.

A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body.
Seattle Daily Times, 4 Feb. 1905.

When a policeman discovers a body he is required to stay with it until help arrives, so he cannot just turn around and give chase to this stranger, who may have quite innocently just walked through the square not seeing the body over in the dark corner.
There would be no suggestion of cowardice in this scenario.

Regards, Jon S.

[booth]

I'm inclined to believe that an ID event of some sort did take place. Swanson seems to think it did, he was privy to a lot of information that we can only dream of knowing about, information that has been lost or perhaps was never officially "logged". It's entirely possible that the answer to this whole mystery has really been within our grasp for a while now and we haven't taken notice of it for whatever personal reasons. Put it this way, I'm more likely to believe a police inspector who was involved in the original investigation rather than someone writing about the investigation 124 years later...

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Jon. Sure, I remember the Sagar story.

If Harvey had witnessed Kate's demise (I don't believe he did) a natural reaction would be to retreat.

That was my ONLY suggestion. And of course, had it happened, he would be hesitant to relate it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

ideas

Hello Booth.

"It's entirely possible that the answer to this whole mystery has really been within our grasp for a while now and we haven't taken notice of it for whatever personal reasons. "

I tend to agree. Any particular ideas?

Cheers.
LC