Kosminski case notes;Allegations of threatening behaviour

[Chris]

Well, they didn't call the cops, they didn't immediately put him in an asylum, I don't think he even moved out. And I don't care how much you care about staining the family name (which is a bit overplayed at this point in time) If someone is violent and dangerous, you don't go to sleep with him in the house. So I am thinking that whatever happened was not considered serious at the time. Maybe a fight where things got overheated. Maybe he was already symptomatic and she did something she knew she shouldn't have that threatened him in some way. Maybe it happened when he was 10.

The record doesn't say when it happened, so we just don't know any of this.

He didn't speak to a member of the family because he didn't need to. They weren't interested in family history and full medical details at this point.

Houchin had to determine whether he should be sent to an asylum, so he would have needed as full and accurate information as possible (and family history was considered relevant - there was a space for it on the asylum admission register). In the nature of things I think the immediate family would have been best placed to provide that.

[Errata]

Houchin had to determine whether he should be sent to an asylum, so he would have needed as full and accurate information as possible (and family history was considered relevant - there was a space for it on the asylum admission register). In the nature of things I think the immediate family would have been best placed to provide that.

I understand why family history would be relevant for an asylum, but why a workhouse? I mean, if someone proved to be a problem at a workhouse they got sent to an asylum, and if that was a possibility they would want to know, but I was not under the impression that they were the social services of the day, sorting inmates as they came in the door. Which is to say, I thought workhouses only dealt with sending people to asylums as problems arose, and that if you brought in some guy frothing at the mouth they would just tell you to institutionalize him. Maybe have a handy map to the nearest one.

[Roy Corduroy]

Good evening Errata,

Yes workhouses were the social services of the day and that's exactly how it worked. if you had a family member with mental health problems who needed help and you could not afford a private asylum, you went to your local workhouse. Based on your place of residence you would have that right. As far as I know, you couldn't just show up at the county asylum gate.

Hope this is helpful,

Roy

[Errata]

Good evening Errata,

Yes workhouses were the social services of the day and that's exactly how it worked. if you had a family member with mental health problems who needed help and you could not afford a private asylum, you went to your local workhouse. Based on your place of residence you would have that right. As far as I know, you couldn't just show up at the county asylum gate.

Hope this is helpful,

Roy

It's not that I don't believe you, But I don't believe that! It's like someone tailor made a scenario creating a maximum amount of paperwork with a minimum amount of success. I mean, if you couldn't afford a doss, you went to a work house, which could be as often as rotating through every couple of weeks. And every time you go through you fill out all the forms again so there is a constant barrage of the simply poor and their forms and someone said "Hey! let's make these people the arbiters of mental health!"

Not clinic doctors, or hospitals, or the cops, or the clergy, or even some minor functionary at the records offices... no we're gonna make it be the guy who wades through a sea of humanity to get to his desk every morning, and has to wade through the same amount of people on his way out at night. The poor schmuck who one top of his 250 impoverished people he has to dispense with, now has to root out the four actually mentally ill ones, fill out THEIR paperwork, and then presumably hosts them in his office until someone gets around to taking the guy to an asylum.

It's like someone said it out loud as a joke at a gentleman's club, and the people listening were too drunk not to realize the guy was kidding.

[Chris]

I think that, as Roy implies, essentially the poor law authorities had to be involved because they would be financially responsible for the ongoing support of a pauper lunatic. Of course, the actual decision was made by a doctor.

Thinking about it, I was probably wrong in assuming that Jacob Cohen had taken Aaron to the asylum, because Houchin didn't examine Aaron himself until 6 February, two days after his admission. I suppose he would have spoken to Cohen on the same day.

[Stewart P Evans]

Too much...

I think that too much is read into Houchin's remark that Aaron Kosminski 'took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister'. After all, he obviously didn't use the knife and it was a mere threat.

Having dealt with dozens and dozens of domestic disputes during my police career I can say that it was quite common for a family member to threaten another family member with a knife during a heated domestic. Siblings appear to be particularly prone to becoming involved in potentially violent disputes. And this appears to have been a 'one-off' otherwise I am sure that repeated incidents of that nature would have been noted.

However, when there are those wishing to invest Kosminski with the dubious accolade of being 'Jack the Ripper' they will inevitably scratch around for any evidence that he could be violent.

[Scorpio]

No body is denying domestic violence was a common problem, or claiming that it is proof that Aaron " was Jack the Ripper ". But i believe violence in one form or another is a part of any realistic suspects physical and interior world.

[Abby Normal]

I think that too much is read into Houchin's remark that Aaron Kosminski 'took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister'. After all, he obviously didn't use the knife and it was a mere threat.

Having dealt with dozens and dozens of domestic disputes during my police career I can say that it was quite common for a family member to threaten another family member with a knife during a heated domestic. Siblings appear to be particularly prone to becoming involved in potentially violent disputes. And this appears to have been a 'one-off' otherwise I am sure that repeated incidents of that nature would have been noted.

However, when there are those wishing to invest Kosminski with the dubious accolade of being 'Jack the Ripper' they will inevitably scratch around for any evidence that he could be violent.

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

and about he same time....

2. his family notifying police of this incident and perhaps relaying to them their suspicions that he was JtR?

Is this what initially put AK on the police/Anderson radar?

Did the police go back and look at their list of people from the house to house searches and then find AK's name and along with Anderson's pre conceived notion that JtR was a jew decided he was suspect enough to have him watched and then do the identification with Lawende?

I could see how Lawendes response might have been more along the lines of it could be the man i saw but i could not swear to it. Which became in Andersons mind- a positive ID but witness will not testify because AK is a fellow jew of lawende.

One can see how this whole series of events could evolve over time in Anderson's mind to him beleiving that he knew who JtR was when all AK's really guilty of is being a jew, being crazy and threatening his sister with a knife.

[Scorpio]

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

and about he same time....

2. his family notifying police of this incident and perhaps relaying to them their suspicions that he was JtR?

Is this what initially put AK on the police/Anderson radar?

Did the police go back and look at their list of people from the house to house searches and then find AK's name and along with Anderson's pre conceived notion that JtR was a jew decided he was suspect enough to have him watched and then do the identification with Lawende?

I could see how Lawendes response might have been more along the lines of it could be the man i saw but i could not swear to it. Which became in Andersons mind- a positive ID but witness will not testify because AK is a fellow jew of lawende.

One can see how this whole series of events could evolve over time in Anderson's mind to him beleiving that he knew who JtR was when all AK's really guilty of is being a jew, being crazy and threatening his sister with a knife.

I dont believe the family made any reference to JtR,a foolhardy thing to do under the circumstances.

[Errata]

I think that too much is read into Houchin's remark that Aaron Kosminski 'took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister'. After all, he obviously didn't use the knife and it was a mere threat.

Having dealt with dozens and dozens of domestic disputes during my police career I can say that it was quite common for a family member to threaten another family member with a knife during a heated domestic. Siblings appear to be particularly prone to becoming involved in potentially violent disputes. And this appears to have been a 'one-off' otherwise I am sure that repeated incidents of that nature would have been noted.

However, when there are those wishing to invest Kosminski with the dubious accolade of being 'Jack the Ripper' they will inevitably scratch around for any evidence that he could be violent.

Siblings are more prone because adolescent older sisters are the devil. I'm just saying...

[Errata]

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

Well, he was put in the workhouse in '91? If the event led directly to his institutionalization, then there would be no evidence of violent behaviour during the Ripper murders. Which I wouldn't think would particularly raise flags.

If it happened earlier, and he was mad for the five years previous then I can see the question arising. If the guy said "well, he threatened his sister with a knife a few years ago, but we didn't think anything of it at the time" That I could see raising flags.

But then it begs the question why didn't anyone do something at the time? And if it's because everyone thought it was just a one time thing, meaning the family never saw any other displays of violence, then it takes him right back out of being someone known to be violent during the Ripper murders.

I think the only way to see him as violent is to simply look at a list of episodes without any dates or circumstances and assume they all happened around 1888. Which could happen, but who on earth would request such a list, and who would be dumb enough to provide it?

[Scorpio]

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

and about he same time....

2. his family notifying police of this incident and perhaps relaying to them their suspicions that he was JtR?

Is this what initially put AK on the police/Anderson radar?

Did the police go back and look at their list of people from the house to house searches and then find AK's name and along with Anderson's pre conceived notion that JtR was a jew decided he was suspect enough to have him watched and then do the identification with Lawende?

I could see how Lawendes response might have been more along the lines of it could be the man i saw but i could not swear to it. Which became in Andersons mind- a positive ID but witness will not testify because AK is a fellow jew of lawende.

One can see how this whole series of events could evolve over time in Anderson's mind to him beleiving that he knew who JtR was when all AK's really guilty of is being a jew, being crazy and threatening his sister with a knife.

The knife incident resulting in Aarons first visit to the workhouse on the12th July 1890, and the workhouse staff informing the police, is workable. But the ID is believed to have taken place near to Aarons second visit to the workhouse on 4th Feb 1891. Why would the police wait such a long time, then send Aaron all the way to Brighton. It seems material on how/why Aaron came to the attention of the police is missing.

[Abby Normal]

The knife incident resulting in Aarons first visit to the workhouse on the12th July 1890, and the workhouse staff informing the police, is workable. But the ID is believed to have taken place near to Aarons second visit to the workhouse on 4th Feb 1891. Why would the police wait such a long time, then send Aaron all the way to Brighton. It seems material on how/why Aaron came to the attention of the police is missing.

Hi Scorpio
In Rob Houses' recent book on AK he beleives the most likely scenario is that the ID took place during AK's first visit to the workhouse. But he was only there for several days so I have a little difficulty seeing how his admittance to the workhouse, the staff informing the police of the knife incident, the police coming to the conclusion he could be JtR and an ID would be necessary, Lining up the witness, and conducting the ID (with difficulty) all could have taken place so quickly within several days. For this all to have happened, and the following events (from Swanson) of the subsequent surveillance of AK by the police and his return to the workhouse after the surveillance "with his hands tied behind his back" I think that the police must have been informed of the knife incident BEFORE he was sent to the workhouse (to allow for more time to set up and conduct the ID). And the only way I think they could have been informed before would have been by the family.

[Scorpio]

I will have to wait untill the new book shows up in the stands, 3rd of June or something now. The knife threatening event as catalyst theory for Andersons deep hatred of women claim seems likely.

[Abby Normal]

I dont believe the family made any reference to JtR,a foolhardy thing to do under the circumstances.

Hi Scorpio
Perhaps they did not. Maybe they only went to the police and told them about the knife incident and the police then made the inference.

But why would it be a foolhardy thing to tell the police there suspicions that there mentally deranged brother was JtR?

He was a burden to them
He was now a threat

and if they beleived (or somehow knew he was JtR) I would think it would be a great relief to them. I am sure they knew he was insane so they probably knew he would wind up in an asylum where he belonged and not on the gallows. And of course they would be doing themselves and society good by getting jack the ripper off the streets.