Kosminski Identification Questions

[belinda]

If Kosminski was the suspect identified at the Seaside Home how did they get him to cooperate?
Did they arrest or hold him on some charge in order to get him to the Home?
Were family members involved in 'persuading' him to take part?
MacNaughten says it was done with "some difficulty" which it must have been .If Kosminski was not under arrest and was the Ripper I can't imagine him being very willing to participate

[Wickerman]

If Kosminski was the suspect identified at the Seaside Home how did they get him to cooperate?
Did they arrest or hold him on some charge in order to get him to the Home?

He was not under arrest, he was detained at Mile End Inst. for 3 days (July 12-15, 1890), then released into the care of his family.

Kosminski was re-admitted in Feb. 1891 until examined by Dr. Edmund Houchin, who then committed him to Colney Hatch.

At no point did the police have authority to take him without the consent of his family and the consent & assistance of Mile End Institution.
Perhaps, this was why Swanson wrote, "sent .... with difficulty".

Both(?) witness identifications may have taken place within those 3 days of detention.

Regards, Jon S.

[belinda]

What about his 1889 December arrest for the unmuzzled dog? Could it have been done then?

[Wickerman]

What about his 1889 December arrest for the unmuzzled dog? Could it have been done then?

Actually the news report mentions Kosminski was summoned to Court, and a fine was mentioned under threat of seven days in jail for non-payment.
He would only have been arrested for nonpayment, but do we know if he payed the fine?

Regards, Jon S.

[belinda]

According to the A to Z he was given till Monday to pay the fine as it was the Jewish Sabbath but it doesn't say if he actually did?

[Errata]

At no point did the police have authority to take him without the consent of his family and the consent & assistance of Mile End Institution.
Perhaps, this was why Swanson wrote, "sent .... with difficulty".

Regards, Jon S.

you gotta wonder if they took him without permission, and he was barking mad at this point, what are the odds that these cops are sharing a tiny little coach with a guy hanging out the window doing his best banshee impression for a couple hours straight (A La Harry and the Hendersons)

[The Good Michael]

If he had been in police custody for non-payment of the fine, they could have easily taken him somewhere in shackles or manacles, to be questioned about other things. It would have been convenient. Since we don't have anything very concrete about the Seaside Home, it's easy to slide such a story into the gap. And isn't that what suspectology is all about?

Mike

[belinda]

Has anybody ever done a complete search of arrests for Aaron Kosminski pre 1888?

[Wickerman]

... you gotta wonder if they took him without permission, and he was barking mad at this point,...

We have no idea what his condition was in 1890, presumably Kosminski was uncontrollable, why else would his brother bring him to the Mile End Inst.?
Likely, this was a last resort on behalf of his family.
The entry log (12 July, 1890) just says, "qy insane" (query insane), which might mean he was brought in for examination to determine if he was insane.

He stayed 3 nights and was returned to his family, so whatever his condition the institution must have deemed him competant to continue living with his family, which he did for the next 6 months.

On 4th Feb 1891 he was committed a second time, this time he was away for good, and on to Colney Hatch.

If Kosminski had been under suspicion before July 1890, perhaps the family's decision to bring Kosminski to Mile End was as a result of persuasion by the police?
Their intent may have been to have Kosminski away from the public eye so they can bring their Jewish witness (Schwartz/Lawende) to Mile End Inst. in an attempt to identify Kosminski.

Seeing as how this first I.D. failed the police may have taken the oportunity to make out a transfer from one medical facility to another, the police convalescent home, to face this Policeman?
But why was there a policeman 'witness' at the Seaside Home?, that in itself is a puzzle.

Therefore, Kosminski was "sent" because the police only supervised the transfer, the Institution took charge of the actual move. Kosminski was at no point under arrest.
The, "with difficulty" may reflect the paperwork and the organization between institutions.

The location at the Seaside Home appears to be the extravegant piece of the puzzle, perhaps Swanson misremembered the location, 50 miles away from London?, seems too extreme.

No matter how we speculate, nothing seems satisfactory.

Regards, Jon S.

[Phil H]

I had always assumed that the "with difficulty" related to administrative or legal issues, rather than physical ones or the man himself.

Phil

[Errata]

We have no idea what his condition was in 1890, presumably Kosminski was uncontrollable, why else would his brother bring him to the Mile End Inst.?
Likely, this was a last resort on behalf of his family.
The entry log (12 July, 1890) just says, "qy insane" (query insane), which might mean he was brought in for examination to determine if he was insane.

He stayed 3 nights and was returned to his family, so whatever his condition the institution must have deemed him competant to continue living with his family, which he did for the next 6 months.

Regards, Jon S.

True enough. However, the man was displaying some severe paranoid tendencies, and I can't imagine any sort of furtive removal from a hospital would not trigger one hell of an episode. Even if he was controllable in the hospital, being smuggled out the back by cops could easily make even the most pliant personality quite agitated.

All I'm saying is that must have been one hell of a carriage ride.

[Marlowe]

Hi,

The expression, "with difficulty", indicates that there was some physical resistance by the individual.

Marlowe

[Wickerman]

Hi,

The expression, "with difficulty", indicates that there was some physical resistance by the individual.

Marlowe

And yet.....he was returned to his brother's care?

We have no need to assume Kosminski was returned directly to his brother's house after the Seaside Home episode.
I would expect he was returned to Mile End, then released into his brother's care.
Also, we have no strong indication whether Kosminski was consistently violent in this period, details are sparse.

Interesting that the doctor at the Mile End Inst. who signed the paperwork to incarcerate Kosminski was himself a Police Surgeon for H Division.

Regards, Jon S.

[belinda]

Perhaps the difficulty was with the Doctors? Maybe they didn't want to release him?

[Marlowe]

Hi,

Swanson didn't choose the words "with difficulty" randomly. That expression was once used to indicate that there was some force used to restrain the individual.

Marlowe