Plausibility of Kosminski

[Fleetwood Mac]

Except that there was no witness to a murder being committed, so in any case it's not true to say the evidence would have convicted the suspect.

As I said, one possibility is that everything Anderson (and Swanson) wrote was literally true. But that leads to a number of difficulties, of which this is only one.

Otherwise we have to allow for the possibility that there are some errors and/or exaggerations in what they wrote, and try to find the likeliest interpretation of it that's consistent with other evidence.

I agree with the most likely scenario point.

Which is why I questioned Lawende being the witness: what did they have that embued Swanson with such confidence that sworn testimony would have led to his conviction?

Could it have been an identification of a man seen with Eddowes (probably seen with Eddowes) 10 minutes prior to her body being found? Would you convict someone on that basis? I wouldn't. It's a man's life at stake, so it has to be damning evidence, and Lawende's sighting simply isn't enough. In other words Lawende's testimony alone is not the most likely scenario for me.

Which leads us neatly onto the next question: what would it have taken to secure a conviction? My estimate is pretty much caught in the act, outside of a confession that is.

Which leads us onto the next question: was Schwartz the witness and BS man the suspect? As Hunter stated, probably not as Swanson states the man was watched by City CID, which leads us back to the Eddowes murder.

Which leads us to the next question: if not Schwartz or Lawende then who? and what did he see? Several references to the City PC suggests it was a policeman, and I can only guess that the police did not make this public due to the inevitable derision from the public that they had their man and he slipped through their fingers.

Which leads us to the next question: which of the City PCs were Jewish?

[mklhawley]

Oh do get real.The whole of Whitechapel if not London was up in arms that the Ripper was still at large in December 1888.The police were under intense pressure to capture him and get a conviction.
No mention whatever is made of a man named Kosminski by the Chief Commissioner of the City of London police,Sir Henry Smith who was at the scene of the Mitre Square murder, which is a lot more than can be said for Sir Robert Anderson.In fact Smith insisted [Jack] 'had them all beat and still had them beat -even 20 years later' No mention at all is made of Kosminski by Inspector Abberline who led the Investigation on the ground.
Macnaghten's prime suspect was Druitt !
Surely these men would have known? Anderson says they did ---and that it was common knowledge but it was not and Abberline and Smith said so in no uncertain terms!

Thanks for the kind beginning of your reply. The public, the general police force, and press still being up-on-arms and the top brass being confident the killer will not strike again are two different issues. If it was true that they thought they knew who it was in December, they still had nothing on him to convict. If indeed they believed it was Kosminski (which I am not confident of, but hypothetically speaking), it would certainly be plausible to not show him their cards and continue as normal in the hopes of catching him in the act. As for the rest of your comments, I have no issues.

[Natalie Severn]

The only card Anderson had to show ,in my opinion, was the joker.Either that or he was seriously out of touch.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Norma,

Sorry to say it is doubtful I will be able to attend. Shame it certainly is.

kindly

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Stewart,

It's funny you mentioned Melvin Harris because last night as I read through some of this thread I was impressed at how many heavy hitters were contributing to it and my thought was "All it's missing is Melvin Harris...now wouldn't THAT make it one exciting thread!" And yes, you are the epitomy of encouragement, at least you were to me and no doubt to Rob House and others, which is why your words and criticisms perhaps carry more of a sting to them than you realize.

And thanks to the internet, modern authors can now experience all the criticism of a published author before they've even written a word!

Simon Wood,

Great to see you around again! I've been wondering about you. Your minutes involving Monro and his mere 3 months at the head of the investigation was completely new to me and appreciated. Does your reemergence signal that there's a new Simon Wood masterpiece in the near future for us Ripperologist subscribers?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

Which leads us onto the next question: was Schwartz the witness and BS man the suspect?

Well, we do know from an official report that Swanson did not consider at the time of the investigation that it was "clearly proved" that Schwartz had seen the murderer, so that wouldn't get round the problem.

Which leads us to the next question: if not Schwartz or Lawende then who? and what did he see? Several references to the City PC suggests it was a policeman, and I can only guess that the police did not make this public due to the inevitable derision from the public that they had their man and he slipped through their fingers.

Which leads us to the next question: which of the City PCs were Jewish?

As I keep suggesting, the other possibility - rather than postulating a police witness so secret that he wasn't mentioned even in internal police reports - is that what Swanson wrote wasn't literally true, for whatever reason.

[Tom_Wescott]

Anderson's embellishments

Phil,

I must say I agree with your estimation of Anderson's 'evidence', that it had a true basis in fact, but there were inaccuracies, and probably intentional embellishments as well, either for face-saving, or just to make himself look better. However, I also think that Anderson was the type of person who could easily be persuaded by his own embellishments to the point where he accepted them as fact.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Phil,

I must say I agree with your estimation of Anderson's 'evidence', that it had a true basis in fact, but there were inaccuracies, and probably intentional embellishments as well, either for face-saving, or just to make himself look better. However, I also think that Anderson was the type of person who could easily be persuaded by his own embellishments to the point where he accepted them as fact.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Very neatly put Tom.Actually I agree with that estimate.Spot on.

[Fleetwood Mac]

As I keep suggesting, the other possibility - rather than postulating a police witness so secret that he wasn't mentioned even in internal police reports - is that what Swanson wrote wasn't literally true, for whatever reason.

It's a possibility, yes.

But, considering the nature of the notes, to whom was Swanson lying and for what purpose?

[Chris]

It's a possibility, yes.

But, considering the nature of the notes, to whom was Swanson lying and for what purpose?

I'm not suggesting he was lying. There are a number of other possibilities. Perhaps the likeliest is that he was paraphrasing briefly something the witness had said, perhaps 30 years earlier, which - as someone has already pointed out - may itself have been based on a misunderstanding of the situation.

[Rob Clack]

Saw this after I wrote the above. Oh my goodness! Rob might change his mind after he realizes I published this idea some time back. He wouldn’t want to be seen agreeing with me!

There's probably a lot I agree with you on and a lot I disagree with you on.

Actually, I think most researchers would agree with Garry on this point. Schwartz was on top of the couple as they spoke and Liz got do-si-doed to the ground. He got a great look at them. After crossing to the other side of the street, Schwartz turned to see BS Man yelling ‘Lipski’. Again he looked at him. Schwartz was able to identify Stride with certainty, whereas Lawende only knew he saw a woman dressed in black. Having said that, I don’t believe Schwartz was used as a police witness, either because he migrated to America, or because they didn’t consider him as reliable as Lawende.

I don't agree with you on this, most of Schwartz's time was walking behind BS, so all he saw was the back of his head. The only time he would have looked at his face was when he was on the other side of the road looking back at him. About the same distance from where Lawenda saw the man with Eddowes. Church Passage entrance was better lighted than Dutfields yard entrance.

Rob

[jason_c]

I see Anderson is now touted as the civilian Colonel Blimp.

[Phil Carter]

...I also think that Anderson was the type of person who could easily be persuaded by his own embellishments to the point where he accepted them as fact.

Hello Tom,

Thanks for your comment and agreement. He appeared, if the above be correct, not just to accepted them within his own mind as fact, but present them as such as well, in book form for all to read. This indicates to me an overblown sense of self importance, and perhaps, and I say this lightly, in his waning years a sense of "things not being as they were when I was in control" sort of thing..a perfectly normal perception of the elderly.. therefore he presented examples of him being in full control whilst actually not being in full control. There is a lot of pride in his autobiography, and indeed, not un-naturally, in his son's biography of his father as well.

kindly

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Norma,

Sorry to say it is doubtful I will be able to attend. Shame it certainly is.

kindly

Phil

Ah---so sorry about that Phil
nx

[robhouse]

To Rob House:
Yes, I know of these newspaper reports plus several other, and they are for some part (typically) conflicting.
It appears that Detective Sergeants W. Thicke and S. White, of the Criminal Investigation Department, made a house-to-house inquiry in the locality of the Berner street murder. They then discovered that on the day after that crime a German left a bloodstained shirt with a laundress at 22 Batley (sic) street..."
(The Echo, October 15, 1888)
I'm not sure how you are concluding that the detectives in question having question Ms. Kür were Sergeants W. Thicke and S. White since they are referenced in the press 5 days LATER than Le Grand and Batchelor in The Northern Eastern Gazette of October 10, 1888. There's not any evidence for an investigation at Ms. Kür's on October 2 either, though at some point I'd like to re-attempt a “comprehensive“ newspaper search – if someone else doesn't beat me to this, which would be nice. :-)

Maria,

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I have done a comprehensive audit of the newspaper reports related to this incident, and yes they evolve a bit, for obvious reasons, but in general they are not as contradictory as you may think.

It does not matter at all when the newspaper reported what... ie 5 days after the Northeastern Gazette. The earliest reports of the incident were clearly... I repeat.. clearly muddled. And the papers even admitted this. Presumably the reason was that Mrs. Kuer was not talking to them, probably because the police told her not to. The Police were trying to keep the whole story quiet... and they succeeded in this for about 10 days apparently.

The papers are fairly clear in what happened. The police found out about the incident from a neighbor, during house to house inquiries following the Stride murder. It is a known fact when these inquiries took place... I cannot give a precise date of the top of my head, but it was in the 2 (or3?) days immediately following the murder. I am assuming October 1-3. You can consult several Ripper books on this, or perhaps Stewart can give a more precise date, as I am sure he knows it. Le Grand and Batchelor found out about this stuff apparently on October 9... ie. approximately a week after the police already knew about it. See below:

"Messrs Grand and Batchelor, private detectives, received information yesterday afternoon which induced them to make enquiries in Batty-street" -- reported on October 10.

So again.. Le Grand clearly just "discovered" something that was already known by at least one neighbor of Mrs. Kuer, and probably more neighbors or residents on the street. And already clearly known by the police. Le Grand then apparently informed the police about it (around October 9). The police of course already knew about it, and were probably mainly annoyed that Le Grand had made public an inquiry that they were trying to keep quiet about.

RH