Plausibility of Kosminski

[Observer]

HaHaha... oh well, I'm entitled to my political beliefs but I really meant to say David Cameron is a Banker.....Thing is we all know that he Bankers are a load of W******

Observer

[DVV]

You're now talking about cryobanks, aren't you ?

Amitiés,
David

[Jdombrowski89]

former Assistant Commissioner, Sir Robert Anderson claimed that the Ripper had been identified by the "only person who had a good view of the murderer" . Anderson and Swanson further stated that no prosecution was possible because the witness was not willing to offer testimony against a fellow Jew
In marginalia in his copy of Anderson's memoirs, Swanson said that this man was "Kosminski"

If one thinks about it, Joseph Hyam Levy was more hesitant to offer information than Lawende. (I don't think that Schwartz spotted the Ripper, my belief) So if anything its possible that Levy was Andersons witness. And I'm with the majority that believes that it wasn't Kosminski. There's no evidence to link him.

Regards,
Justin

[Chris]

However, your point that Anderson didn't say whether his suspect was alive or dead is a fair one.

That was the only point I was making.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Pirate

I realise it's somewhat innapropriate to pidgeon hole this type of killer, but I believe Peter Sutcliffe comes close in terms of method to Jack the Ripper. Sutcliffe supposedly suffers from schizophrenia, although he has never descended to the depths of despair that Kosminski did. Modern drugs could be a factor as why he has remained comparatively stable.

all the best

Observer

Actually Sutcliffe is far from a typical schizophrenic. He is a lot older than experts might expect to have developed the condition. There was considerable difference of opinion about his mental condition although schizophrenia was accepted as cause and as you say he was treated with drugs and has been as expected completely harmless.

My point was that schizophrenia alone is unlikely to have been the sole reason for the attacks if Aaron where indeed the Ripper.

You'd probably be looking for other factors, could be some sort of drug or alcohol.

Pirate

[Jonathan H]

Pirate,

What theory do you subscribe to -- if any -- as to how Aaron Kosminski came to police attention, and when exactly?

Paul Begg writes very cogently about this in '-- The Facts' (2004), ps. 351-2

'Anderson's story is relatively simple. The police, or at least some of them, had concluded that the murderer was living i the East End, either alone and able to get rid of the bloodstains unobserved, or with people who must have seen the bloodstains and known or suspected his guilt, but didn't want to hand him over to the police. They made a house-to-house investigation of every man who lived alone and could get rid of his bloodstains unobserved, and this is evidently failed to turn up any suspects because the police concluded that the murderer must live with people who suspected his guilt, which in turn suggested that he was an immigrant Polish Jew because immigrant Polish Jews were reluctant to hand over one of their own to Gentile authorities. There is nothing in what Anderson says to allow us to infer that the police had a suspect at that time. It was sometime later, months or even years, that they identified Jack the Ripper and learned that their diagnosis (today we'd probably call it a profile) was correct.'

[Septic Blue]

Swanson said that when Kosminski was handed over to Stepney Workhouse (Mile End Old Town Workhouse) by his brother (in-law) in 1891 his hands were tied behind his back.

One wonders why a peaceful imbicile would need to have his hands tied behind his back by members of his own family ?

Hmmm!

Swanson said that when Kosminski was handed over to Stepney Workhouse (Mile End Old Town Workhouse) ...

Swanson purportedly referred to "Stepney Workhouse". Aaron Kosminski was admitted to Mile End Old Town Workhouse.

I trust you realize that the two institutions were not one and the same!

Swanson said that when Kosminski was handed over ... by his brother (in-law) in 1891 ...

He said no such thing!

[Abberline2]

Hmmm!



Swanson purportedly referred to "Stepney Workhouse". Aaron Kosminski was admitted to Mile End Old Town Workhouse.

I trust you realize that the two institutions were not one and the same!



He said no such thing!

1) According to Begg's RtR: The Facts, p 370, Mile End Old Town Workhouse had been incoporated into Stepney Borough in 1901. As Begg points out, at the time Swanson was writing in 1910, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse.

2) My typing error. It should read:

Swanson said that when Kosminski was handed over to Stepney Workhouse - (Mile End Old Town Workhouse, by his brother (in-law)) - in 1891 his hands [were] tied behind his back.

This is part of what Swanson wrote in his marginalia on the end-paper of his copy of Anderson's memoirs. The context was what happened to Anderson's suspect after he was returned to his brother's house (likely to have been the house of Kosminski's sister and brother-in-law). Swanson wrote that after a short time the suspect was handed over to Stepney Workhouse, hands tied behind his back. At the end of this portion of marginalia Swanson identified Anderson's suspect as Kosminski. As a number of commentators have pointed out, had Kosminski been restrained by the police they would have used handcuffs. Thus, the fact that his hands were 'tied' might indicate that he was handed over by members of his family.

[Septic Blue]

According to Begg's RtR: The Facts, p 370, Mile End Old Town Workhouse had been incoporated into Stepney Borough in 1901. As Begg points out, at the time Swanson was writing in 1910, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse.

I am well aware of Mr. Begg's assertion; and it is categorically incorrect!

... had Kosminski been restrained by the police they would have used handcuffs. Thus, the fact that his hands were 'tied' might indicate that he was handed over by members of his family.

That's fine; but the so-called 'Swanson Marginalia' makes no mention of either Kosminski's family, or the year 1891.

[Abberline2]

I am well aware of Mr. Begg's assertion; and it is categorically incorrect!

That's fine; but the so-called 'Swanson Marginalia' makes no mention of either Kosminski's family, or the year 1891.

1. Would you kindly provide the evidence that Begg's assertion is false. Thanks.

2. True, but we can reasonably infer from other sources. Swanson's comments do not exist in a vacuum. As one of my old History professors often said: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

[robhouse]

I think it is safe to assume that Swanson meant that Kozminski was taken to Mile End by his family (in Feb 1891), and that it was presumably the family that tied his hands etc. But, as Colin points out, Swanson does not say this. I do think it is the correct inference however.

Re: the Mile End Workhouse and Stepney workhouse. Colin knows much more about this stuff than I do, and this was discussed extensively on the boards in the past. My own interpretation (going from memory here) is that by 1910, Mile End Old Town Workhouse was the largest workhouse in Stepney, whereas Stepney Workhouse was not actually in the redefined borough of Stepney... In any case, I think it is a reasonable mistake for Swanson to have made, since MEOT was in Stepney, and Stepney Workhouse was not.

I am sure Colin can tell you more about this. In any case, he is correct in saying that MEOT workhouse was not Stepney Workhouse... they were two separate places.

Rob H

[Septic Blue]

I am well aware of Mr. Begg's assertion; and it is categorically incorrect!

Would you kindly provide the evidence that Begg's assertion is false. Thanks.

I am sure Colin can tell you more about this. In any case, he is correct in saying that MEOT workhouse was not Stepney Workhouse... they were two separate places.

Thanks, Rob!

Begg's assertion was purely conjectural, and tantamount to suggesting that by 1910:

- Spitalfields Market was Stepney Market
- Whitechapel High Street was Stepney High Street
- St. George in the East Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse
- Shadwell Basin was Stepney Basin
- Mile End Road was Stepney Road
- Whitechapel Union Workhouse was Stepney Union Workhouse
- Limehouse Basin was Stepney Basin
- etc ...

The Councils of the twenty eight Metropolitan Boroughs that were created in accordance with the London Government Act 1899, did not have jurisdiction over pre-existing Poor Law Parishes / Unions, or for that matter, any facet of administration of the English Poor Law. As such, the autonomy of the Poor Law entities that were situated within the boundaries of the newly created Stepney Metropolitan Borough (and Poplar Metropolitan Borough), remained fully intact.

Each Poor Law institution (workhouse, infirmary, casual ward, etc…) belonged to its respective Poor Law Parish (i.e. Mile End Old Town) or Poor Law Union (i.e. Whitechapel), and was administered accordingly:

Whitechapel Poor Law Union (1837-1921); Whitechapel Poor Law Parish (1921-1925)
- The Liberty of Norton Folgate
- The Old Artillery Ground
- The Parish of Christ Church Spitalfields
- The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
- The Parish of Holy Trinity ('Minories')
- The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel
- The Liberty of His/Her Majesty's Tower of London
--- {The Liberty of the Tower}
--- {The Precinct of Old Tower Without}
--- {The Tower}
- The Precinct of St. Katharine
- The Parish of St. Botolph Without Aldgate (Portion within the County of Middlesex / County of London)

__ Whitechapel Union Workhouse, South Grove, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town (1872-1921)
__ Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Charles Street / Baker's Row / Vallance Road, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (1872-1921)

Mile End Old Town Poor Law Parish (1857-1925)
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town

__ Mile End Old Town Workhouse, Bancroft Road, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town (1859-1925)
__ Mile End Old Town Infirmary (located on the grounds of Mile End Old Town Workhouse)

St. George in the East Poor Law Parish (1836-1925)
- The Parish of St. George in the East

__ St. George in the East Workhouse, Raine Street, Parish of St. George in the East (1836-1925)
__ St. George in the East Infirmary (located on the grounds of St. George in the East Workhouse)

Stepney Poor Law Union (1836-1921); Limehouse Poor Law Parish (1921-1925)
- The Parish of St. John of Wapping
- The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell
- The Hamlet of Ratcliff
- The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse
- The Hamlet of Mile End Old Town (1836–1857)

__ Stepney Union Workhouse, St. Leonard's Street, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard (1863-1921)
__ Poplar & Stepney Sick Asylum, Devon's Road, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard (1871-1930?) – A Poor Law infirmary, shared by the Poor Law Unions of Poplar and Stepney (Poplar & Stepney Sick Asylum District) – If the "Kosminski" purportedly named by Swanson was in fact, entrusted to the care of the Guardians of Stepney Poor Law Union *, then he was in all likelihood, admitted to this facility, as opposed to Stepney Union Workhouse

* This would almost invariably have necessitated his being a resident of Stepney Poor Law Union (The Parish of St. John of Wapping; The Parish of St. Paul Shadwell; The Hamlet of Ratcliff; The Parish of St. Anne Limehouse) or Poplar Poor Law Union (The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow; The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard; The Parish of All Saints Poplar), as opposed to "his brother’s house in Whitechapel"

Poplar Poor Law Union (1836-1907); Poplar Borough Poor Law Parish (1907-1930)
- The Parish of St. Mary Stratford Bow
- The Parish of Bromley St. Leonard
- The Parish of All Saints Poplar

__ Poplar Union Workhouse, Poplar High Street, Parish of All Saints Poplar (1836-1907)
__ Poplar & Stepney Sick Asylum, Devon's Road, Parish of Bromley St. Leonard (1871-1930?) – A Poor Law infirmary, shared by the Poor Law Unions of Poplar and Stepney (Poplar & Stepney Sick Asylum District)

[Abberline2]

Thanks, Rob!

Begg's assertion was purely conjectural, and tantamount to suggesting that by 1910:

- Spitalfields Market was Stepney Market
- Whitechapel High Street was Stepney High Street
- St. George in the East Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse
- Shadwell Basin was Stepney Basin
- Mile End Road was Stepney Road
- Whitechapel Union Workhouse was Stepney Union Workhouse
- Limehouse Basin was Stepney Basin
- etc ...

The Councils of the twenty eight Metropolitan Boroughs that were created in accordance with the London Government Act 1899, did not have jurisdiction over pre-existing Poor Law Parishes / Unions, or for that matter, any facet of administration of the English Poor Law. As such, the autonomy of the Poor Law entities that were situated within the boundaries of the newly created Stepney Metropolitan Borough (and Poplar Metropolitan Borough), remained fully intact.

Thanks for that info Detective Blue. Good to see solid research being done. I still feel, like Rob, that the inferences are very clear but I do accept this is inference.

[Septic Blue]

Thanks, Rob!

Begg's assertion was purely conjectural, and tantamount to suggesting that by 1910:

- Spitalfields Market was Stepney Market
- Whitechapel High Street was Stepney High Street
- St. George in the East Workhouse was Stepney Workhouse
- Shadwell Basin was Stepney Basin
- Mile End Road was Stepney Road
- Whitechapel Union Workhouse was Stepney Union Workhouse
- Limehouse Basin was Stepney Basin
- etc ...

The Councils of the twenty eight Metropolitan Boroughs that were created in accordance with the London Government Act 1899, did not have jurisdiction over pre-existing Poor Law Parishes / Unions, or for that matter, any facet of administration of the English Poor Law. As such, the autonomy of the Poor Law entities that were situated within the boundaries of the newly created Stepney Metropolitan Borough (and Poplar Metropolitan Borough), remained fully intact.

Thanks for that info …

You are most welcome!

[Stephen Thomas]

Off Topic Post

Hi Colin

Sweet second half yesterday

Ray Wilkins is starting to look like Uncle Fester innit

Might Avram 'Thai massage parlour' Grant come back to haunt you?