Plausibility of Kosminski

[Lechmere]

As Hunter says, there is nothing to suggest that Schwartz was available for ID parades after 1888. Many Jewish people who fled Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe came to London initially for a brief period and then moved on to the United States, South Africa, South America, and so forth.

But one thought, could this...
“They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.”
...refer to the refusal to identify a fellow Jewish suspect, so making the witness useless to the police?

[Fleetwood Mac]

As far as witnesses who makes a statement having witnessed a crime and states they would not be able to recognise the offender again is concerned the police would not ask that witness to participate in an Id parade. This would be a pointless excercise as if he did then go an participate and pick the person out the evidential value of that ID would be zero having stated in writng that he would not be able to identify him again

I can believe they couldn't secure a conviction.

I can't believe the police would have passed up an opportunity to identify this fella for reasons as follows:

1) Curiosity. The most notorious man going and one you've spent a lot of time tracking and has given you the run around. Would you not be curious as to the identity of this fella?

2) Resources/economics. If he's the man, then the police can settle down and discontinue any resources being ploughed into catching JTR, with obvious benefits.

3) Learning. I'd imagine a good policeman would want to know how he managed to give them the run around, and, in particular, what they could do in future to prevent such an embarrassing situation.

Were I a policeman, Lawende could have said to me: "No chance of recognising him again" (not just "I doubt it"), and I would have taken him along. And, I'd have dragged Levy and Harris along, too.

[Stewart P Evans]

Jewish appearance

...
On another note, in a Plausibility of Koz thread shouldn't we be discussing how a 23 year old Polish Jew might look like a 30 year old fair, Gentile sailor?
Greg

There is nothing about the descriptions given by both Schwartz and Lawende to suggest that their suspects looked Jewish. However, you will see in an earlier post that I referred to Anderson's wording on the identification where he stated that the witness identified the suspect but on learning he was a fellow Jew refused to swear to it. This might indicate that the Polish Jew suspect did not have a Jewish appearance.

[Chris]

As Hunter says, there is nothing to suggest that Schwartz was available for ID parades after 1888. Many Jewish people who fled Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe came to London initially for a brief period and then moved on to the United States, South Africa, South America, and so forth.

There was an Israel Schwartz living at 22 Samuel Street (a couple of hundred yards from the murder site) at the date of the 1891 census. As he is the only Israel Schwartz who has been found in that census anywhere in England and Wales, I think he is quite likely to have been the witness. He lived nearby for the rest of his life, and never learned English.

Although he was still in the area, by the date of the 1891 census he had apparently changed his address at least three times - to 16 Brunswick Street by 8 December 1890, to 19 Brunswick Street by 3 March 1891 and to 22 Samuel Street by 5 April 1891. (Possibly one of the Brunswick Street addresses is an error for the other, but on the other hand, he has not been found before December 1890, so there may well have been other moves between October 1888 and December 1890. Of course, the witness had been due to move house on the day of the murder itself.) So unless the police had made special arrangements to keep track of him he might not have been easy to find.

In contrast, Lawende was in stable employment - at the date of his naturalisation in April 1889 he had been working for Messrs Gustav Kuschke & Co, tobacco merchants, of 99 Fenchurch Street, for more than six years. The police had evidently been given his employers' address (though McWilliam got the number wrong in his report of 27 October 1888). So it does seem likely that Lawende would have been easier for the police to contact if needed.

[Rob Clack]

The question one has to ask is what was Stride doing in Berner Street outside The Club in the first place. Was she soliciting if she was then as likely as not she was propositioning almost every man that walked past. If that be the case could it be that in fact the man seen "attacking" her was no more than a man who she had accosted and who pushed her away to get rid of her and not her killer ?

I think Broad shoulders might have been a club member evicting Stride from the Yard. That's my opinion.

Rob

[Fleetwood Mac]

There is nothing about the descriptions given by both Schwartz and Lawende to suggest that their suspects looked Jewish. However, you will see in an earlier post that I referred to Anderson's wording on the identification where he stated that the witness identified the suspect but on learning he was a fellow Jew refused to swear to it. This might indicate that the Polish Jew suspect did not have a Jewish appearance.

Curious as to how it was established he was a'fellow jew', then.

Presumably this wasn't the one and only time a Jew refused to shop a Jew. Iin the event there was experience of this, which to make it plausible there must have been, then the police would have been the people to know.

So, wouldn't they have being reluctant to volunteer this information?

But, yes, good point. If Anderson is to be believed then it clearly wasn't clear that the suspect was Jewish.

[Archaic]

I think Broad shoulders might have been a club member evicting Stride from the Yard. That's my opinion. Rob

That's an intriguing idea, Rob. I've wondered the same thing.

Hi Chris. If Israel Schwarz lived only a couple of hundred yards from the Stride murder scene in 1891, then it seems to me he can't have been very afraid that BS-Man was Jack the Ripper and might return to the area and recognize him.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Trevor Marriott]

I think Broad shoulders might have been a club member evicting Stride from the Yard. That's my opinion.

Rob

Do you not think that it would have come out in the police investigation I belive the police locked everyone inside the club following the discovery of her body.

Question to the members "Did anyone see the victim prior to her death"

[Rob Clack]

Do you not think that it would have come out in the police investigation I belive the police locked everyone inside the club following the discovery of her body.

No, not if they covered for one of there members, and also he could have been long gone before she was murdered.

Rob

[Chris]

There is nothing about the descriptions given by both Schwartz and Lawende to suggest that their suspects looked Jewish. However, you will see in an earlier post that I referred to Anderson's wording on the identification where he stated that the witness identified the suspect but on learning he was a fellow Jew refused to swear to it. This might indicate that the Polish Jew suspect did not have a Jewish appearance.

Which would not be particularly uncommon - a fair proportion of Polish Jews had blond hair and blue eyes.

For what it's worth, we know from members of the family that Aaron's sister Matilda had blue eyes, as did her husband Morris Lubnowski Cohen (who was also Aaron's first cousin) and all their children. So did another of Aaron's cousins, David Lubin (born Lubnowski), the founder of the International Institute of Agriculture [Olivia Rossetti Agresti, "David Lubin: a study in practical idealism," p. 339 (1922)].

[Trevor Marriott]

No, not if they covered for one of there members, and also he could have been long gone before she was murdered.

Rob

Rob
I cannot disagree with your point I was merely offering up a plausible explantion as to whether or not the person seen having some form of an altercation with Stride could have been someone else and not the killer thus ruling Schwartz from being considered as the witness subject to the questionable ID

[Trevor Marriott]

Which would not be particularly uncommon - a fair proportion of Polish Jews had blond hair and blue eyes.

For what it's worth, we know from members of the family that Aaron's sister Matilda had blue eyes, as did her husband Morris Lubnowski Cohen (who was also Aaron's first cousin) and all their children. So did another of Aaron's cousins, David Lubin (born Lubnowski), the founder of the International Institute of Agriculture [Olivia Rossetti Agresti, "David Lubin: a study in practical idealism," p. 339 (1922)].

You have missed off Uncle Tom Cobbley !

[Rob Clack]

Rob
I cannot disagree with your point I was merely offering up a plausible explantion as to whether or not the person seen having some form of an altercation with Stride could have been someone else and not the killer thus ruling Schwartz from being considered as the witness subject to the questionable ID

Hi Trevor,

I don't believe the person Schwartz saw was her killer. I don't even think Stride was a ripper victim anyway.

Rob

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

I don't believe the person Schwartz saw was her killer. I don't even think Stride was a ripper victim anyway.

Rob

Well its nice to know we are in total agreement all we need now is a few more to come forward and join our cartel

[Wickerman]

As Rob House stated in his recent book, the second time Aaron Kozminski was taken to Mile End, he was examined by Mr. Edward Houchin, a surgeon for H division, Metropolitan Police. Houchin had evidently been installed there to examine entrants since 1888. There's no proof, but one can't help but speculate that Houchin was used to process potential suspects in the Whitechapel murders, unless there is information that the use of police surgeons at such institutions was common practice.

Thankyou Hunter.
The only reason I made no reference to Houchin was because he was introduced to us after-the-fact, as you point out, on the second visit.

My thoughts were on the first visit, principally because of what Swanson said, that Kosminski came under suspicion when returned to his brother's house. Therefore my point was that someone at the hospital might have alerted the authorities in July while he was detained there three days.
That 'someone', could still have been Dr Houchin.

To elaborate on what I wrote earlier, if the (first?) I.D. was conducted while Kosminski was in Mile End in July (three days), then placed under surveillance by the City CID, then obviously the ID came first, that Kosminski became a police suspect due to the ID. Therefore, he was not a suspect prior to July 1890.
If Kosminski 'was' suspected prior to July, why was he admitted to Mile End by his brother?

Regards, Jon S.