Plausibility of Kosminski

[Trevor Marriott]

I think that Trevor might be labouring under a misapprehension here. Much material did go missing, in the 1970s, and I have photocopies of some of it that were made before the reports went 'walking'. Apropos of the actual murders, the whole file on Emma Smith went missing, but fortunately not before Sergeant Donald Rumbelow of the City Police saw it and made verbatim notes.

I should have made my position clearer i was referring to files relating to suspects

Have you or anyone ever seen anyhting in any police file lost or otherwise relating to any of the suspects listed today as being suspects in 1888 other than those refered to in the memo.

The details on the actual murders were common knowledge in any event.

[Stewart P Evans]

Suspects

I should have made my position clearer i was referring to files relating to suspects
Have you or anyone ever seen anyhting in any police file lost or otherwise relating to any of the suspects listed today as being suspects in 1888 other than those refered to in the memo.
The details on the actual murders were common knowledge in any event.

Yes, there was much relating to named suspects that went missing in the 1970s. Inspector Roots' report on Roslyn D'O Stephenson together with his statement by letter were purloined during that period but we fortunately have photocopies of the relevant papers taken before they went missing. The missing suspects files contained information on an array of named suspects such as the hairdresser 'Mary', Arthur Henry Mason, Dick Austin, Pierce John Robinson, Antoni Pricha, Edwin Burrows to name but a few.

[MrTwibbs]

I agree that "the seaside home" is highly likely to mean a police one as one was set up in brighton and it is likely in this case the suspect was Cutbush who was taken their for ID by his uncle (already there perhaps being treated for depression)

however seaside home could mean one in Margate. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Wolf Kosminsky send his brother there? Margate is down by the seaside. I do view this as unlikely because surely it would have been wored "his seaside home"
Kosminsky imo is unlikely JTR because of his personal profile. It is unlikely that someone who suffers like he did would then embark on cutting open a prostitute who has many many germs. My opinion of course.

[Chris]

however seaside home could mean one in Margate. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Wolf Kosminsky send his brother there?

Perhaps you're thinking of the boarding house in Ramsgate that was run by Isaac Abrahams, the elder of Aaron's brothers? As far as I know there is no evidence that Aaron ever went there, nor any evidence that Isaac was running the boarding house as early as 1891 (the first reference to it that I know of is a slightly doubtful one in 1894).

[Natalie Severn]

November 1889: Kosminski walks his dog in Cheapside

IMHO, kosminski may have had all the tell tale signs of being a serial killer, but I think he would have flipped and been caught when it all got too much for him.

Busy Beaver

I thought you made some really good points back in your other post BB -especially about those "psychotic' episodes a person who is mentally ill may have that may result in them attacking and sometimes killing people but that these killers very seldom go uncaught -for long!
However,
Kosminski clearly had times after the murders were committed when he enjoyed his freedom ,poor soul.For example,as a young man of 23 he was actually,and in point of fact walking his dog around Cheapside, without a care in the world apparently in November 1889 ie a full year after the Mary Kelly murder when he got pulled up and fined for not having put a muzzle on the dog .We even have a record of him being fined 10 shillings.

Perhaps Sir Robert Anderson was on a hotline to the Almighty at that conjuncture, performing an "act of contrition" over what had happened to Henri Le Caron and Pigott ?
Le Caron, [real name Thomas Billis Beach ] had recently been "unmasked" in 1889 and lived in fear of his life thereafter ,having been forced to "out himself" by Anderson as his spy for during the Special Commission"s investigation of 1888/89 into whether Charles Parnell,the Home Rule MP for Ireland , had been "framed" as being in league with the Phoenix Park Murderers of 1882 !
Richard Pigott, the forger had forged letters supposed to have come from the Home Rule MP , Charles Parnell and Robert Anderson--no less, had kind of "joined forces " with him in 1887 writing articles for The Times Newspaper suggesting Parnell was "in league" with America Irish terrorists who were plotting to carry out bombing outrages in England.Anyway after he had been found out trashing Parnell for The Times newspaper ,Pigott committed suicide in 1889 having also been forced to "unmask himself".
So I guess Sir Robert"s eye really was not at all on the ball about Kosminski in 1889---and that must be why he got so grotesquely muddled up about him and gave out that he was in the loony bin instead!

Even Macnaghten joined the crazy chorus !
viz:
"Kosminski, a Polish Jew, detained in a lunatic asylum about MARCH 1889! The Macnaghten Memorandum of 1894!

[Trevor Marriott]

Stewart
I am not interested all the "also rans" i am interestd in the main band of suspects as we know them. The ones that relate to the police officers i have quoted and the ones who most seek to rely on to add weight to their own suspect theories

A simple answer will suffice

[Chris]

A simple answer will suffice

The problem is that every time someone gives you a simple answer, the question changes!

[Trevor Marriott]

Its because no one gives a straight answer and people like you come on and want to antagonise the situation. If you cant add any sensible input keep out !

[Chris]

Its because no one gives a straight answer and people like you come on and want to antagonise the situation. If you cant add any sensible input keep out !

Now you're just being plain rude.

I went to the trouble of giving you a reference to the Ultimate Sourcebook, where you could find information about the missing files. Stewart has gone to the trouble of posting further information (all material covered in the work I referred you to). Your response is to complain about people "not giving straight answers" to your questions.

I'm afraid you're hardly in a position to accuse other people of being antagonistic.

[Trevor Marriott]

Now you're just being plain rude.

I went to the trouble of giving you a reference to the Ultimate Sourcebook, where you could find information about the missing files. Stewart has gone to the trouble of posting further information (all material covered in the work I referred you to). Your response is to complain about people "not giving straight answers" to your questions.

I'm afraid you're hardly in a position to accuse other people of being antagonistic.

The files i am referring to I am suggesting are not missing lost or stolen. The fact is that there were never any files on those suspects in the first place, simply because they were never looked at as suspects by the police.

I wouldnt mind betting that the ledgers and registers are going to confirm that.

[Scorpio]

According to Anderson, Kosminski was under surveillance in the post identification period. He was aware of this fact, and so,i believe, were his family. Fear of continued anti social behaviour and an imminent arrest may have motivated exaggerated reports of Kosminski's "mad behaviour" given to the workhouse authorities, in the hope that the state would take responsibility for him.

[robhouse]

There was also Morley House Seaside Convalescent Home for Working Men in St Margaret’s Bay which reserved several beds for members of the City Police.

Incidentally, I do not see why the identification had to have taken place at a Police seaside home anyway. It seems entirely possible to me that the reason the identification took place at "the seaside home" is that the witness was convalescing there, therefore requiring the police to bring the suspect to the witness.

Rob H

[mariab]

files misplaced in the 1970s and SB ledgers

Trevor Marriot wrote:
The files i am referring to I am suggesting are not missing lost or stolen. The fact is that there were never any files on those suspects in the first place, simply because they were never looked at as suspects by the police.
I wouldnt mind betting that the ledgers and registers are going to confirm that.
Mr. Marriot, I think that Stewart Evans posted earlier in this thread that the file pertaining to the Emma Smith case was lost in the 1970s. Clearly this was not a file on suspects, but can we really know what all is missing? Sources that old rarely are preserved in their entirety, and I speak from experience here (although on a different field).
Stewart Evans wrote:
Much material did go missing, in the 1970s, and I have photocopies of some of it that were made before the reports went 'walking'. Apropos of the actual murders, the whole file on Emma Smith went missing, but fortunately not before Sergeant Donald Rumbelow of the City Police saw it and made verbatim notes.

Mr.Marriot, might I please ask if you have any anticipations pertaining to the “3 suspects“ listed in the Special Branch ledgers, were these ledgers to become available in the not so far future? (For which I wish you the best of lucks.) Besides "William Mac Grath“, whom else, if at all, would you expect to be mentioned in connection with the Whitechapel investigation? Also, have you ever perused part of these ledgers, or do you have your information solely from the Clutterbuck dissertation and from the Butterworth book?
Clutterbuck, interestingly enough, has also claimed that he found no reference to Tumblety in the ledgers. A thought I'm having is, “Mc Grath“ is referenced in the ledgers not directly as a suspect, it only says “in connection with the Whitechapel murders“. Could it be that Magrath was questioned by the MET as a witness/informant pertaining to Tumblety, IF he happened to know Tumblety?! Perhaps this might make much more sense than to conjecture another painter as a Ripper suspect...
I can't wait for Examiner 4 to come out, so as to read the last part of R.J. Palmer's new research on Tumblety.

[robhouse]

Hi Maria,

A question I have asked before (and which I am not sure anyone answered) is... why would we expect to find files on JTR in the Special Branch files at all.

Some people seem to think that these SB files are likely to contain the holy grail of Ripper documentation. Such as, for example, Trevor's recent statement that he "wouldnt mind betting that the ledgers and registers are going to confirm that" the "main band of suspects..." (presumably Druitt, Kozminski, Tumblety etc) "were never looked at as suspects by the police."

My question is... why would such information be in the Special Branch files? The Special Branch was focused on domestic terrorism from Fenians. Why would any information about Kozminski or Druitt end up in there? The only plausible reason is that the SB (under Monro) was used to orchestrate a cover-up or something like press manipulation regarding the case, which to me seems highly doubtful.

Rob House

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Mariab
[QUOTE=mariab;144047
[B]The files i am referring to I am suggesting are not missing lost or stolen. The fact is that there were never any files on those suspects in the first place, simply because they were never looked at as suspects by the police.
I wouldnt mind betting that the ledgers and registers are going to confirm that.[/B][/B]
Mr. Marriot, I think that Stewart Evans posted earlier in this thread that the file pertaining to the Emma Smith case was lost in the 1970s. Clearly this was not a file on suspects, but can we really know what all is missing? Sources that old rarely are preserved in their entirety, and I speak from experience here (although on a different field).


[/B]I have covered the above issues in another thread on this topic which by now you may have read.

Mr.Marriot, might I please ask if you have any anticipations pertaining to the “3 suspects“ listed in the Special Branch ledgers, were these ledgers to become available in the not so far future? (For which I wish you the best of lucks.) Besides "William Mac Grath“, whom else, if at all, would you expect to be mentioned in connection with the Whitechapel investigation? Also, have you ever perused part of these ledgers, or do you have your information solely from the Clutterbuck dissertation and from the Butterworth book?
Clutterbuck, interestingly enough, has also claimed that he found no reference to Tumblety in the ledgers. A thought I'm having is, “Mc Grath“ is referenced in the ledgers not directly as a suspect, it only says “in connection with the Whitechapel murders“. Could it be that Magrath was questioned by the MET as a witness/informant pertaining to Tumblety, IF he happened to know Tumblety?! Perhaps this might make much more sense than to conjecture another painter as a Ripper suspect...

As far as then entry to Magrath is concerned I am not able to give a definitive answer as to why he was looked upon as being connected. The original files apperatining to that and all other entries in the ledgers are apparenrly no longer in existence.

As to the other suspects named I am hopeful that I may at least obtain these details in due course and then have to continue with the due process of law to obtain full and un restricetd access.

May I ask are you one that subscribes to Tumblety being the Ripper ?