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This is G o o g l e's cache of http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=132222 as retrieved on 9 Feb 2008 08:38:16 GMT.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
28th January 2008, 02:22 PM
chris
Superintendent
Lubnowski children
In the 1901 census the following children were listed for Morris and Matilda Lubnowski at 64 Wellesley Street, Mile End:
Bertha aged 19 born Germany
Annie aged 17
Samuel aged 14
Jane aged 12
Millie aged 10
The four above born in Spitalfields
Yetta aged 7
Esther aged 6
Two above born in Mile End
The births of the children were registered as follows:
Annie 1884 - Mile End
Samuel 1886 - Mile End
Jane 1889 - Mile End
Milly 1891 - Mile End
Yetta 1893 - Mile End
Esther 1895 - St George in the East
Jane Lubnowski in Quarter 1 of 1915 was married to Joseph Ascher in Mile End.
They had a daughter named Maisie R Ascher born in 1919 in Wandsworth.
Bertha Lubnowski in Quarter 3 of 1906 was married to Harry Cohen in Mile End.
They subsequently had two sons as follows:
1912: Judah Cohen born in Mile End
1914: Joseph Cohen born in Hackney
There is one child who seems to be connected but whose parentage I cannot as yet trace.
In 1911 a John Abrahams was born in Mile End and his mother's maiden name is given as Lubnowski. Kosminski's other sister, Betsy, has married Woolf Abrahams.
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
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.
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28th January 2008, 09:17 PM
robert
Teaboy
Chris, you can probably eliminate Yetta as the mother because she changed her name from Lubnowski to Cohen, by deed poll, in 1921.
Address, 5 Ashcroft Rd, Bow.
Robert
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28th January 2008, 09:31 PM
chris
Superintendent
Hi Robert
many thanks for that - every piece of information helps in the story
Chris
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
28th January 2008, 10:05 PM
robert
Teaboy
Chris, marriages Q4 Mile End 1907 1c 838 :
Annie Lubnouski (sic)
Tobias Abrahams - ditto.
Robert
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28th January 2008, 10:13 PM
chris
Superintendent
Many thanks again Robert - that helps considerably
Chris
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
31st January 2008, 02:06 PM
cgp100
Superintendent
Thanks to Chris and Robert for posting these details.
Rob House and I have been making a fairly determined effort, over the last 8 months or so, to trace descendants of Aaron's family. Having regard to the privacy of the family, we thought it was probably best not to post any details beyond Aaron's own generation.
The descendants who have responded have been very helpful, but unfortunately none of them knows anything of Aaron (other than what they have read in books about the Whitechapel Murders). However, they have given us some useful additional information about the family - for example, they were able to confirm that Woolf Abrahams was Aaron's brother, not his brother-in-law. Rob is in the process of getting more genealogical information from Poland, and when we have that we'll post an update here.
Chris Phillips
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.
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1st February 2008, 09:09 PM
Carroty Nell
Police Constable
I'm fairly new to the message boards and I'm just amazed at the work you are doing. Is the lack of knowledge among the descedants in itself significant? Does it indicate this was clearly a black sheep whom no-one talked about? Whether or not he was the Whitechapel murderer I'm not sure I'd want snapshots of him in my family photo-album. Does the fact that family descendants clearly knew Aron was a suspect in the Whitechapel murders prove once and for all that he is the shadowy Anderson/McNaghten suspect?
I'm more of a Druittist myself and I might be asking something very stupid (remember I'm new) but have descendants of the Druitts been traced in this way?
.
.
.
1st February 2008, 11:29 PM
chris
Superintendent
Here is the info above (and 2 more Abrahams offspring) tabulated as a family tree
Attached Images
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
1st February 2008, 11:31 PM
chris
Superintendent
Here is Tobias Abrahams's military history confirming his marriage to Annie Lubnowski
Attached Images
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
2nd February 2008, 02:44 PM
cgp100
Superintendent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroty Nell
I'm fairly new to the message boards and I'm just amazed at the work you are doing. Is the lack of knowledge among the descedants in itself significant? Does it indicate this was clearly a black sheep whom no-one talked about? Whether or not he was the Whitechapel murderer I'm not sure I'd want snapshots of him in my family photo-album. Does the fact that family descendants clearly knew Aron was a suspect in the Whitechapel murders prove once and for all that he is the shadowy Anderson/McNaghten suspect?
Thanks for your comment.
My feeling is that the lack of knowledge about Aaron among descendants of the family isn't significant in itself. Knowledge about Aaron's generation is incomplete anyway. Some family members have knowledge of (and remember) Woolf and Matilda, but Woolf and Matilda were still living in the late 1930s, whereas Aaron died twenty years early, and had been in Colney Hatch and Leavesden since 1891.
In addition, I think there might well have been a natural reticence concerning a member of the family who had been mentally ill.
I think it's difficult to argue in either direction based on this lack of knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroty Nell
I'm more of a Druittist myself and I might be asking something very stupid (remember I'm new) but have descendants of the Druitts been traced in this way?
John Ruffels would be the expert on that, but I think the descendants of the Druitt family have been pretty thoroughly traced. In his book on Druitt, Dan Farson included information from several members of the family, including two of MJD's nieces.
Chris Phillips
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
28th January 2008, 02:22 PM
chris
Superintendent
Lubnowski children
In the 1901 census the following children were listed for Morris and Matilda Lubnowski at 64 Wellesley Street, Mile End:
Bertha aged 19 born Germany
Annie aged 17
Samuel aged 14
Jane aged 12
Millie aged 10
The four above born in Spitalfields
Yetta aged 7
Esther aged 6
Two above born in Mile End
The births of the children were registered as follows:
Annie 1884 - Mile End
Samuel 1886 - Mile End
Jane 1889 - Mile End
Milly 1891 - Mile End
Yetta 1893 - Mile End
Esther 1895 - St George in the East
Jane Lubnowski in Quarter 1 of 1915 was married to Joseph Ascher in Mile End.
They had a daughter named Maisie R Ascher born in 1919 in Wandsworth.
Bertha Lubnowski in Quarter 3 of 1906 was married to Harry Cohen in Mile End.
They subsequently had two sons as follows:
1912: Judah Cohen born in Mile End
1914: Joseph Cohen born in Hackney
There is one child who seems to be connected but whose parentage I cannot as yet trace.
In 1911 a John Abrahams was born in Mile End and his mother's maiden name is given as Lubnowski. Kosminski's other sister, Betsy, has married Woolf Abrahams.
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
28th January 2008, 09:17 PM
robert
Teaboy
Chris, you can probably eliminate Yetta as the mother because she changed her name from Lubnowski to Cohen, by deed poll, in 1921.
Address, 5 Ashcroft Rd, Bow.
Robert
.
.
.
28th January 2008, 09:31 PM
chris
Superintendent
Hi Robert
many thanks for that - every piece of information helps in the story
Chris
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
28th January 2008, 10:05 PM
robert
Teaboy
Chris, marriages Q4 Mile End 1907 1c 838 :
Annie Lubnouski (sic)
Tobias Abrahams - ditto.
Robert
.
.
.
28th January 2008, 10:13 PM
chris
Superintendent
Many thanks again Robert - that helps considerably
Chris
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
31st January 2008, 02:06 PM
cgp100
Superintendent
Thanks to Chris and Robert for posting these details.
Rob House and I have been making a fairly determined effort, over the last 8 months or so, to trace descendants of Aaron's family. Having regard to the privacy of the family, we thought it was probably best not to post any details beyond Aaron's own generation.
The descendants who have responded have been very helpful, but unfortunately none of them knows anything of Aaron (other than what they have read in books about the Whitechapel Murders). However, they have given us some useful additional information about the family - for example, they were able to confirm that Woolf Abrahams was Aaron's brother, not his brother-in-law. Rob is in the process of getting more genealogical information from Poland, and when we have that we'll post an update here.
Chris Phillips
.
.
.
1st February 2008, 09:09 PM
Carroty Nell
Police Constable
I'm fairly new to the message boards and I'm just amazed at the work you are doing. Is the lack of knowledge among the descedants in itself significant? Does it indicate this was clearly a black sheep whom no-one talked about? Whether or not he was the Whitechapel murderer I'm not sure I'd want snapshots of him in my family photo-album. Does the fact that family descendants clearly knew Aron was a suspect in the Whitechapel murders prove once and for all that he is the shadowy Anderson/McNaghten suspect?
I'm more of a Druittist myself and I might be asking something very stupid (remember I'm new) but have descendants of the Druitts been traced in this way?
.
.
.
1st February 2008, 11:29 PM
chris
Superintendent
Here is the info above (and 2 more Abrahams offspring) tabulated as a family tree
Attached Images
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
1st February 2008, 11:31 PM
chris
Superintendent
Here is Tobias Abrahams's military history confirming his marriage to Annie Lubnowski
Attached Images
__________________
"The truth is out there somewhere..."
.
.
.
2nd February 2008, 02:44 PM
cgp100
Superintendent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroty Nell
I'm fairly new to the message boards and I'm just amazed at the work you are doing. Is the lack of knowledge among the descedants in itself significant? Does it indicate this was clearly a black sheep whom no-one talked about? Whether or not he was the Whitechapel murderer I'm not sure I'd want snapshots of him in my family photo-album. Does the fact that family descendants clearly knew Aron was a suspect in the Whitechapel murders prove once and for all that he is the shadowy Anderson/McNaghten suspect?
Thanks for your comment.
My feeling is that the lack of knowledge about Aaron among descendants of the family isn't significant in itself. Knowledge about Aaron's generation is incomplete anyway. Some family members have knowledge of (and remember) Woolf and Matilda, but Woolf and Matilda were still living in the late 1930s, whereas Aaron died twenty years early, and had been in Colney Hatch and Leavesden since 1891.
In addition, I think there might well have been a natural reticence concerning a member of the family who had been mentally ill.
I think it's difficult to argue in either direction based on this lack of knowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroty Nell
I'm more of a Druittist myself and I might be asking something very stupid (remember I'm new) but have descendants of the Druitts been traced in this way?
John Ruffels would be the expert on that, but I think the descendants of the Druitt family have been pretty thoroughly traced. In his book on Druitt, Dan Farson included information from several members of the family, including two of MJD's nieces.
Chris Phillips