Wouldn't Anderson Have Been Informed of Kosminski's Death?

[Darryl Kenyon]

There are three reasons why Kosminski would no longer be at Colney Hatch after April 19 1894. One he was cured and released. two he was transferred, as what happened, or three he died. If he was released i am sure the police would have become aware of it. But what if the correct authorities due to some bureaucratic **** up or whatever didn't inform the police that he was now at Leavesden.
At a later date Swanson got someone to check on Kosminski, at Colney Hatch, they didn't follow it through properly just found out there was no one there by that name in 1895 and presumed he had died.
Swanson tells the Pall mall gazette reporter, or someone close to the press [ 7 May 1895, after Kosminski had been moved from Colney Hatch ] that he believed the man was now dead and they changed it to, as reporters do that he was dead.
Note in the Swanson marginalia he says that Kosminski was sent to Stepney workhouse and then to Colney hatch but makes no mention of Leavesden.

[S.Brett]

Hi Darryl!

Anderson and Colney Hatch, Rob House 2012 (Post 7):

"This is my last post. I was flipping through the Male Patients Casebook (that contained Kozminski's entry) and quite randomly came across this:

A handwritten letter from Robert Anderson from the Convict Supervision Office, dated March 7 1891 (interestingly, this is exactly 1 month after Kozminski was admitted to Colney Hatch on Feb 7, 1891).

The letter concerns a patient named George Hall:

"Sir,

I have been informed that George Hall, who is subject to Police Supervision, has been admitted into the Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum. I shall therefore feel obliged if you will cause me to be informed in the event of his discharge from your care.

I am
Sir
Your obedient servant
R Anderson (signature)
Assistant Commissioner"

It is addressed "To the Medical Superintendant, Lunatic Asylum, Colney Hatch"

This letter is, in my opinion, very interesting, as it confirms, if nothing else, that Robert Anderson was in direct correspondence with the Superintendant of Colney Hatch at the time Aaron Kozminski was a patient there. In my opinion—as I stated previously on several occasions—if the police informed the asylum that they believed Kozminski was the Ripper (which I assume they did), this would have been communicated to the head officers at the Asylum under strict orders of maintaining secrecy... hence there would not have been such a letter attached to Kozminski's file as there is here.

So this (to my mind) supports such a conjecture, as it shows that Anderson was in touch with the Asylum only shortly after the time Kozminski was admitted there. And he surely would have been informed of Kozminski's release or transfer."

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7059

If Anderson was in touch with Colney Hatch (concerning Kosminski) how could he think that Kosminski died in this asylum? How could Swanson think that Kosminski died shortly afterwards?

[Fisherman]

There are three reasons why Kosminski would no longer be at Colney Hatch after April 19 1894. One he was cured and released. two he was transferred, as what happened, or three he died. If he was released i am sure the police would have become aware of it. But what if the correct authorities due to some bureaucratic **** up or whatever didn't inform the police that he was now at Leavesden.
At a later date Swanson got someone to check on Kosminski, at Colney Hatch, they didn't follow it through properly just found out there was no one there by that name in 1895 and presumed he had died.
Swanson tells the Pall mall gazette reporter, or someone close to the press [ 7 May 1895, after Kosminski had been moved from Colney Hatch ] that he believed the man was now dead and they changed it to, as reporters do that he was dead.
Note in the Swanson marginalia he says that Kosminski was sent to Stepney workhouse and then to Colney hatch but makes no mention of Leavesden.

Poster S Brett has already contributed a post that sheds a lot of light over Andersons contacts with Colney Hatch. I would just add that when you write that the sudden absense of Kosminski from Colney Hatch could have made Anderson presume that he was dead.
This is where I would think that he would not have settled for a presumption that could well be wrong. To my mind, Anderson would have requested information about why Kosminski was no longer in place - if he ever found himself in this kind of a situation which I very much doubt.
To be honest, I think he would - and should - have made sure beforehand that he was informed about any movements on behalf of Kosminski within the mental asylums, if he was of the meaning that Aaron Kosminski was the killer.

[S.Brett]

One possible answer would be: Confusion of names!

Imagine the following scenario:

Jacob Cohen, present at the admission when Kosminski was sent to an asylum outside London about March 1889.

Jacob Cohen, present at the admission when Kosminski was sent to Colney Hatch 1891.

In the first case it is possible that Aaron Kozminski was addmitted under the name of Aaron Cohen. Perhaps the police were looking for an Aaron Cohen after the Millers Court murder and had found a man, similiar to Kosminski. When they realized that he is the wrong man they gave him the name "David Cohen" (identity unsolved). At the end "David Cohen" was brought to Colney Hatch.

In the second case Aaron Kozminski was addmitted to Colney Hatch under his real name.

Both men, "David Cohen" and Aaron Kozminski were very similiar. The same age, the same religion, and most probably the same illness, maybe both men were Polish and both men spoke German sometimes.

At one point Colney Hatch might have provided false informations to Anderson (or someone else) if Anderson had asked for a "Cohen".

[Paddy]

It appears that Kozminski did not go into Colney under Police Supervision. Possibly his cousin Jacob Cohen got him in there quick before police had a chance.

The Family were pretty successful and well conected. I am sure they would have got legal help to deal with Aarons situation.

It just could have been that when he was moved to Leavesden a broken man Anderson or Swanson just wanted it buried. He was only a suspect, so they could not say he was still alive as it would have stirred up the public and press.

Thats my take on it anyway...
Pat

[Paddy]

It would explain Andersons complaints against the people protecting Kozminski.

Pat...........

[S.Brett]

Hi Pat!

It appears that Kozminski did not go into Colney under Police Supervision. Possibly his cousin Jacob Cohen got him in there quick before police had a chance.

The Family were pretty successful and well conected. I am sure they would have got legal help to deal with Aarons situation.

It just could have been that when he was moved to Leavesden a broken man Anderson or Swanson just wanted it buried. He was only a suspect, so they could not say he was still alive as it would have stirred up the public and press.

Thats my take on it anyway...
Pat

But Swanson´s wrote in a copy of Anderson´s book that Kosminski died . They would have lied to themselves, privately. No public, no press...

[S.Brett]

It appears that Kozminski did not go into Colney under Police Supervision. Possibly his cousin Jacob Cohen got him in there quick before police had a chance.

Swanson:

On suspect's return to his brother's house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch

It appears that the City Police was not far away when Kosminski went to Colney Hatch.

[Paddy]

Swanson:

On suspect's return to his brother's house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back, he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch

It appears that the City Police was not far away when Kosminski went to Colney Hatch.

Yes its so confusing. Maybe the police escorted him to Stepney Workhouse and the family were forced or demanded to have him passed as insane. In fact they would have wanted him admitted or else he could have been arrested at some point soon.

Pat........................

[S.Brett]

Yes its so confusing. Maybe the police escorted him to Stepney Workhouse and the family were forced or demanded to have him passed as insane. In fact they would have wanted him admitted or else he could have been arrested at some point soon.

Pat........................

What do you think about the idea that his family knew of the Seaside Home ID? Perhaps the police first were really hoping that the witness would change his mind but then they told his family (later, after they had realized that the witness would not change his mind), sleight of hand, that there is a chance that this witness might come back, and that it would be better to send their family member to a public asylum. Declared as an insane person, a witness and the police would no longer harm him. At the end the police would have been pretty sure that Kosminski will never leave this asylum, never again temporarily at large (Griffiths) as before.

[spyglass]

Hi all,
Well the theory I'm working on and still putting together would point to the idea that in reality, there was only a canonical four.
I believe ( possibly ) that the killer, was after Eddowes caught or at least known.
However the Police wanted it to be thought that MJK was a ripper murder and so clearly couldn't say they already had their man. This of course would cause problems at any latter trial.
All the hints of any identification and important witnesses all revolve around the double event, and only mentioned many years later.
I'm beginning to believe all the clues are right there to be found.

Regards

[c.d.]

"On the overall question about whether the leader of the police force of the worlds greatest metropolis would have had kept himself informed about the death of the worlds most prolific killer, I think that one more or less answers itself.

Even if it is reasoned that the ones who kept watch over Kosminski would never divulged even the smallest detail about him and his life inside the walls, one must ask oneself how on earth Anderson and Swanson arrived at the conclusion that he was dead."

Thank you, Fish. That is exactly the point I was attempting to make in my own clumsy way.

Perhaps if we simply referred to the inmate that Anderson referenced in his memoirs as "Asylum Inmate X" that might help alleviate any confusion regarding the alleged connection to Kosminski. So instead of being told that Kosminski had died, Anderson was simply told that "X" had died. Now since Anderson states that X's death occurred shortly after incarceration I would think that a one or two year period should cover "shortly." The point being that you would think that the Ripper dying shortly after being incarcerated is something that he would remember even twenty years down the road and not get his facts wrong on this point.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Once Kozminski was put in Asylum I am sure they would not allow the police to question him. They would not be able to pass information on to the police either because he was deemed insane. Just like when the police wanted to question Isenschmid and the Asylum at Bow refused to allow them.
Pat.....

Can anyone confirm what official police procedure would have been in this instance?

c.d.

[Elamarna]

"On the overall question about whether the leader of the police force of the worlds greatest metropolis would have had kept himself informed about the death of the worlds most prolific killer, I think that one more or less answers itself.

Even if it is reasoned that the ones who kept watch over Kosminski would never divulged even the smallest detail about him and his life inside the walls, one must ask oneself how on earth Anderson and Swanson arrived at the conclusion that he was dead."

Thank you, Fish. That is exactly the point I was attempting to make in my own clumsy way.

Perhaps if we simply referred to the inmate that Anderson referenced in his memoirs as "Asylum Inmate X" that might help alleviate any confusion regarding the alleged connection to Kosminski. So instead of being told that Kosminski had died, Anderson was simply told that "X" had died. Now since Anderson states that X's death occurred shortly after incarceration I would think that a one or two year period should cover "shortly." The point being that you would think that the Ripper dying shortly after being incarcerated is something that he would remember even twenty years down the road and not get his facts wrong on this point.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

Agree it is a very big question why they have the date wrong.

Even if they have the wrong man, the date should be correct should it not?

The answer almost certainly would take us much further forward in the case of Kosminski's candidature.


Steve

[c.d.]

Hi Steve,

You would think that Anderson being only human would want some confirmation of his suspicions regarding "X" possibly hoping that he would at some point confess or make a very incriminating statement at some point but a premature death would have dashed those hopes. Which is why I think if what Anderson said took place was true that he would have remembered the date of "X's" death as significant.

c.d.