Wouldn't Anderson Have Been Informed of Kosminski's Death?

[S.Brett]

Sorry yes I could have made that clearer. Woolfe and his family were living in Providence street that is next to Berner Street. They pulled their daughter out of school in October 1888. As she was not registered in a school for the next 6 months its hard to know what happened. However Woolfe was living in Yalford street by feb/march 1889 as they had a baby that died there..Maybe the daughter was taken out to help her mum at home...

Pat......goodnight !

That was a truly great article in Ripperologist 128 in 2012 by you and Chris Phillips... great research you have done in the past... sleep well...

[Paddy]

I do not think he was low class as he came from a successful family both brothers being master tailors and one being a freemason. At the time of the double event his family were living in the next street to Berner Street
I thought the family of the freemason Woolf were living next to Berner Street... my fault...

Sorry yes I could have made that clearer. Woolfe and his family were living in Providence street that is next to Berner Street. They pulled their daughter out of school in October 1888. As she was not registered in a school for the next 6 months its hard to know what happened. However Woolfe was living in Yalford street by feb/march 1889 as they had a baby that died there..Maybe the daughter was taken out to help her mum at home...

Pat......goodnight !

[S.Brett]

...

You on JTRForums:

I do not think he was low class as he came from a successful family both brothers being master tailors and one being a freemason. At the time of the double event his family were living in the next street to Berner Street

I thought the family of the freemason Woolf were living next to Berner Street... my fault...

[S.Brett]

Thanks Pat and good night!

[Paddy]

Karsten Thanks for the info I will have a look at it and get back to you if I can find anything. I do think it would have been private or it would have been mentioned on Aarons notes. Also that it was probably a rest home of some kind.
Thanks
Pat...

[Paddy]

I read something like that somewhere and there was mentioned Woolf would have been the Freemason. Do you have the source for me?

I did not find Woolfe as a freemason only Isaac.
Here is the source from Ancestry

United Grand Lodge of England
1863-1887
Register of Contributions: London Lodges, 156-784 (1832); 134-538 (1863)

However I do believe Jacob Cohen was a freemason at some time..

Pat...

[Fisherman]

Fleetwood Mac: I absolutely agree that this doesn't mean Kosminski was JTR.

At the same time, it is almost inconceivable that Swanson would have added his thoughts without saying something like: "but, I wasn't convinced because...." in the event he wasn't convinced with Anderson's conclusion.

I don´t know, Mac - we are talking about notes made in a private book. It´s not as if he was selling something to somebody. To me, it may well have been a case of him reiterating Anderson´s take, and at the very least, it´s not something that can be excluded.

The idea that Swanson simply repeated Anderson's opinion is merely a means of avoiding what is laid out in black and white because some people don't want to believe that Swanson and Anderson both believed they had their man, that is two senior officials, one of them the administrative head of the investigation; given that it follows that one or both must have had good reason to believe they had their man.

To me, the fact that it must be assumed that Swanson wrote for nobody but himself means that it cannot be established to what extent he believed in Andersons suspect. It´s not that I cannot see what you mean and how you read it, but whenever you argue a case, you argue it AGAINST somebody - and there is no counterpart involved here. To me, Swanson may well have filled in the blanks in order to produce a more full description of Andersons thoughts, nothing more than that.
If you was to ask me how much Swanson invested in it all, I´d really be at a loss to jump off the fence in any direction. To my mind, Swanson seems a much less flamboyant man than his old boss, a man of more afterthought and a sort of quiet reflecting over things. He fits either way.

All of this is predicated on the assumption that the marginalia is genuine, of course.

Of course!

[S.Brett]

Thanks Pat!

I would have thought the family knew what was happening all along. I would think it was really difficult for them. If Aaron was sent away after the double event I feel it would have been to a Jewish Rest Home or a private hospital. If a seaside home ID happened I would have thought it was to push the family into commiting him. Aarons brother Isaac was a free mason so I am sure could know where to get legal help for him. I think a lot went on behind the scenes to safeguard Aaron.
I think he was written out of history (as dead) due to legal implications...and Swanson backed this up .
Thats my personal view ....
Pat..............

I read something like that somewhere and there was mentioned Woolf would have been the Freemason. Do you have the source for me?

It appears that the Jewish Home/ Stepney Green was a Jewish Workhouse and later it belonged to the Nightingale in Surrey. We find the Jewish Hospital in Stepney Green.

“The Hand in Hand Home occupied the following premises: 5 Duke's Place (from 1843), 22 Jewry Street (from 1850), Wellclose Square (from 1854) and 23 Well Street, Hackney (from 1878). The Widow's Home was first based at 22 Mitre Street, then 19 Duke Street (from 1850), 67 Great Prescott Street, Goodmans Fields (from 1857) and later moved next door to the Hand in Hand in 1880.

The Jewish Workhouse was founded in 1871 by a movement led by Solomon Green, the son of Abraham Green one of the founders of the Widow's Home. The first premises were at 123 Wentworth Street. In 1876 the Home moved to 37-9 Stepney Green.

Nightingale:

“The charity’s origins can be traced back to 1840. The three original homes were called the Hand in Hand Asylum, the Widows’ Home Asylum and the Jewish Workhouse, also known as the Jewish Home. They were established in the old Jewish quarter in London’s East End to cater for the needs of poor Jewish people”

I found this:

SOLOMON ABRAHAM GREEN . I am a provision dealer and founder of the Jewish Home of which Isaac Bloomfield is secretary—it is a home for the purpose of taking Jews out of Christian workhouses—

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18930306-350&div=t18930306-350&terms=Jewish#highlight

I wonder whether it might be possible that Aaron Kozminski was brought from the Workhouse (July 1890) to the Jewish Home/Hospital, Stepney Green and then on to Surrey.

Along Mile End Road were two Jewish homes (1891):

Portuguese and Spanish Jew´s hospital between 251-255 Mile End Road.
Jewish Home (Samuel Shuter, supt.), 37-39 Stepney Green Mile End Road.

I hope I understood it correctly.

Karsten.

[Fleetwood Mac]

To be honest, Anderson/Swanson saying that their belief was that Kosminski was the Ripper does not per se mean that he must have been. It only means that the two (or at least one of them) were either of this opinion, or they chose to say so anyway. And Swanson may have echoed Anderson without being of the same mindset himself.

Anyway, I don´t think Anderson had the correct solution at all - it seems to me that a personal boastfulness was given the opportunity to walk hand in hand with a desire on behalf of the police authorities to be presented with a solution that was a little less shameful than total defeat.

I absolutely agree that this doesn't mean Kosminski was JTR.

At the same time, it is almost inconceivable that Swanson would have added his thoughts without saying something like: "but, I wasn't convinced because...." in the event he wasn't convinced with Anderson's conclusion.

The idea that Swanson simply repeated Anderson's opinion is merely a means of avoiding what is laid out in black and white because some people don't want to believe that Swanson and Anderson both believed they had their man, that is two senior officials, one of them the administrative head of the investigation; given that it follows that one or both must have had good reason to believe they had their man.

All of this is predicated on the assumption that the marginalia is genuine, of course.

[Paddy]

United Grand Lodge of England
1863-1887
Register of Contributions: London Lodges, 156-784 (1832); 134-538 (1863)

Isaac Abrahams
age 35
34 Plummers Row
Commercial Road
Mantle Manf.
Passing Dec 30 1884
Raising Apr 28 1885
Certificate June 26th 1885

Pat....

[Paddy]

What do you think about the idea that his family knew of the Seaside Home ID? Perhaps the police first were really hoping that the witness would change his mind but then they told his family (later, after they had realized that the witness would not change his mind), sleight of hand, that there is a chance that this witness might come back, and that it would be better to send their family member to a public asylum. Declared as an insane person, a witness and the police would no longer harm him. At the end the police would have been pretty sure that Kosminski will never leave this asylum, never again temporarily at large (Griffiths) as before.

I would have thought the family knew what was happening all along. I would think it was really difficult for them. If Aaron was sent away after the double event I feel it would have been to a Jewish Rest Home or a private hospital. If a seaside home ID happened I would have thought it was to push the family into commiting him. Aarons brother Isaac was a free mason so I am sure could know where to get legal help for him. I think a lot went on behind the scenes to safeguard Aaron.
I think he was written out of history (as dead) due to legal implications...and Swanson backed this up .
Thats my personal view ....
Pat..............

[Fisherman]

This is simply linguistic acrobatics.

'Murderer would have hanged' is pretty much as close as you can get to Kosminski being Jack the Ripper, without actually saying: "Kosminski was Jack the Ripper".

Providing the marginalia is genuine, then you can only draw one conclusion: Swanson was convinced Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.

To be honest, Anderson/Swanson saying that their belief was that Kosminski was the Ripper does not per se mean that he must have been. It only means that the two (or at least one of them) were either of this opinion, or they chose to say so anyway. And Swanson may have echoed Anderson without being of the same mindset himself.

Anyway, I don´t think Anderson had the correct solution at all - it seems to me that a personal boastfulness was given the opportunity to walk hand in hand with a desire on behalf of the police authorities to be presented with a solution that was a little less shameful than total defeat.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Kosminski was never hypothesized as being Jack the Ripper. Just a "suspect".

This is simply linguistic acrobatics.

'Murderer would have hanged' is pretty much as close as you can get to Kosminski being Jack the Ripper, without actually saying: "Kosminski was Jack the Ripper".

Providing the marginalia is genuine, then you can only draw one conclusion: Swanson was convinced Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.

[Mayerling]

Thanks Steve for picking up on my suggestion of calling the head of the asylum Dr. Seward, after the character in Stoker's "Dracula", but I think we have to put it down with quotation marks (like "Dr. Seward") or people will believe that WAS the name of the asylum official. I don't like to think that I created an inadvertent persistent error in nomenclature like Conan Doyle did in "J. Habbakuk Jephson's Statement" calling the 1872 mystery boat the "Marie Celeste" instead of the correct name of "Mary Celeste". To this day many writer use the Conan Doyle error in name as the correct name of the ship.

Jeff

[S.Brett]

Hi Darryl!

Do we no what George Hall was accused of ?

I don´t know but look at this:

The Star, LONDON. TUESDAY, 30 OCTOBER, 1888

A Badly Punished Policeman.

George Hall and William Burns got sentence of six months' hard labor each at Clerkenwell for punching and kicking Police-constable Hughes, who had to eject them from a shop in Leather-lane. A police-inspector asked for a remand, as the doctor had stated that there was a possibility of serious results from the constable's injuries; but Mr. Bros said in such a case a further charge could be preferred.

i have no idea, all very confusing.

If there were two "Ripper suspects" in Colney Hatch, "David Cohen" and Aaron Kozminski, both men born in 1865, Polish Jews, the same illness, both men spoke German and treated by the same doctor (Dr. Seward), "David Cohen" brought by the MET Police, Kosminski brought by the City Police, then, it would have been possible that there were some confusions.

We do know that Aaron Kozminski gave himself the name Aaron Abrahams in December 1889. I would not rule out that his name was Aaron Cohen in autumn 1888. There were family members, Jacob Cohen (born Kozminski) and later Morris & Matilda Cohen, who have carried this surname (these different names a reason why Macnaghten and Swanson have written "Kosminski" without first name?).

On the basis of their similarity ("David Cohen" and Aaron Kozminski) I believe that it is possible that both men were suspects.

Assumed that Anderson was in touch with Colney Hatch regarding "David Cohen" in 1889 and again regarding Aaron Kozminski in 1891 between him and Colney Hatch something might have gone wrong.

It would be most helpful to know the name of the asylum where Kosminski was sent about March 1889 perhaps the same asylum where he was sent in the second half of the year 1890 ( when he was caged in this asylum -in 1890- he was sent to Seaside Home identification). If we would find an Aaron Kozminski, Abrahams or Cohen in such asylum records we would know that some officers received incorrect informations about the death of him.

It is interesting that Swanson and Anderson signed the neutralisation of Aaron Kozminski`s brother Isaac Abrahams in 1901 when Aaron Kozminski was still alive:

Memorial
Isaac Abrahams of 171 Cable Street St Georges in the East in the County of London
... a subject of the Emperor of Russia having been born at Klodorer Koliski in the Empire of Russia on the Third day of May 1852 and being the son of Joseph & Golder Abrahams who were both subjects of the Emperor of Russia ...
resides at 171 Cable St St Georges in the East in the County of London and is of the age of 48 years and is a Tailor.
... a Married man and has one child under age residing with him viz.
Rachel - 17 years of age
... settled place of business is at 171 Cable Street St Georges in the East in the county of London
That your Memorialist has for five years within the period of the eight years last past resided within the United Kingdom, vizt. [standard form]
From October 20th 1893 to present time at 171 Cable Street St Georges in the East in the county of London
7 years 2 months
[Signed] I. Abrahams [very shaky]

Sureties
Walter Belcher 40 Tillman Street St Georges East London Estate Agent ([has known him] 8 years)
George Leeder Licensed Victualler of 56 Cannon Street Road London East (10 years)
Henry Whiting Laundryman of 108 St George Street St Georges East London (9 years)
and John Gibbs Builder of 229-231 Cable Street St Georges East London (7 years)
[All signed] 265 Gresham House Old Broad Street in the City of London 16 January 1901
Before Ernest [Smith] A commissioner for oaths.

CID Report
Isaac Abrahams Tailor
The declaration of residence have [sic] been enquired into and the sureties are respectable persons householders and British born subjects.
I have seen the applicant who is a respectable man he states he has resided in this country for the past 30 years, intends to remain permanently and wishes to enjoy the rights and priveleges [sic] of a British subject.
The sureties speak well of applicant as a respectable man and I see no reason to doubt their statements.
Ernest Baxter [?]P S
D. S. Swanson Superintendent
Cover sheet dated 19th February 1901 and signed R. Anderson.

7 June 1901. Isaac Abrahams
Agent Mr J. Cantor 211, Old Ford Road, E.
Certif Regd & returned 19 June '01

[HO 144/617/B35582]

Karsten.