Jack the Ripper At Last? by Helena Wojtczak

[Observer]

Evening Amanda,I personally have never taken any of the so called eyewitnesses seriously when we consider the lighting conditions and fleeting glimpses and doubts if the right people were been observed we can't take any of them seriously.I'm not saying that no one saw our killer I think someone must have but didn't come forward.

Hi Pinkmoon

Considering you comments, surely, if someone did see the killer and did not report it, then their description would be as worthless as the witnesses who did come forward? Considering of course the poor lighting conditions, and fleeting glimpses, you allude to.

Observer

[Abby Normal]

George Chapman was only 23 years old in 1888.

Only if we believe that not one single witness truly saw the killer, not Mrs Long, not Lawende, not Schwartz, can we begin to accept that a young 23 year old killer was on the loose.
Which then begs the question, why bother trying to find parallels between any witness sighting and George Chapman - they are all irrelevant.

Kozminski suffers from the same problem, in my opinion, he was also only 23 years old in 1888.

For those who prefer to accept that age can be deceptive it may be of consequence to note that when the victims were found and still lay unidentified they were all assumed to look younger than they actually were.
Yes, age was deceptive, but in the wrong direction.

If all the witnesses saw a suspect who looked variously between 28 and about 40 yrs old, then judging by the erroneous estimates of the victims, the killer was likely older than he appeared, not younger.
To accept otherwise is to adopt a view which contradicts the only examples we are able to use as a measure.

Call me a party pooper.

Hi Wick
Maybe he simply looked older than he was.

The main problem for me with the witness decriptions are that none describe a man with an accent, which chapman surely had.

[robhouse]

George Chapman was only 23 years old in 1888.

Only if we believe that not one single witness truly saw the killer, not Mrs Long, not Lawende, not Schwartz, can we begin to accept that a young 23 year old killer was on the loose.
Which then begs the question, why bother trying to find parallels between any witness sighting and George Chapman - they are all irrelevant.

Kozminski suffers from the same problem, in my opinion, he was also only 23 years old in 1888.

For those who prefer to accept that age can be deceptive it may be of consequence to note that when the victims were found and still lay unidentified they were all assumed to look younger than they actually were.
Yes, age was deceptive, but in the wrong direction.

If all the witnesses saw a suspect who looked variously between 28 and about 40 yrs old, then judging by the erroneous estimates of the victims, the killer was likely older than he appeared, not younger.
To accept otherwise is to adopt a view which contradicts the only examples we are able to use as a measure.

Call me a party pooper.

I have posted this before, but here is a test for anyone reading this... on the reliability of witness statements and estimating ages. Here are some photos from the City of London Police museum...

If people want to guess the ages of the following people, then afterwards I will post the correct answers.

Rob H

[Abby Normal]

I have posted this before, but here is a test for anyone reading this... on the reliability of witness statements and estimating ages. Here are some photos from the City of London Police museum...

If people want to guess the ages of the following people, then afterwards I will post the correct answers.

Rob H

I'll try!
1. 22
2. 14
3. 36
4. 19

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Amanda. That of course open to speculation. How would you react?

Observer

Well, I think I would find it fascinating, certainly interesting but I would not be horrified, I don't think.
As a family member of one of Chapman's victims I feel sorry and have empathy for what the poor girl went through but I accept that is what happened and is part of my family history. If it was ever proved that I was related to JtR I think I would react in the same way, as far as I would not feel responsible for crimes that I had not committed but would accept that that was a very interesting part of my family tree.
At least, that's how I think I would react. How would you?

[Amanda Sumner]

I have posted this before, but here is a test for anyone reading this... on the reliability of witness statements and estimating ages. Here are some photos from the City of London Police museum...

If people want to guess the ages of the following people, then afterwards I will post the correct answers.

Rob H

1.25
2.16
3.32
4.18

[Varqm]

1) 24-28
2)13-17
3) 36-42
4)52-60

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

1) 36
2) 18
3) 44
4) 28

[pinkmoon]

Did I say that? I said it would be difficult to say, precisely, how old someone was at night, by gas light, seen briefly from any distance and one could only guess at someone's age in that situation. Someone of 23 could look older as well as someone described to be around 40 could actually be in his 30's..
Anyone who has died often looks younger than their years because the facial muscles relax. At least the victims were studied and seen in daylight, but as you, yourself, say the ages were still estimated wrongly.
I think it's more important to note that Chapman does not fit with most of the descriptions witness's gave. Of course, there is no certainty that anyone actually saw Jack the Ripper. It's all a matter of opinion, really.

Pinkmoon: I read that your high ranking policeman got his information either from the family or the rumour started because of the timing of his suicide. I can't think why the family would do that, so I think it had more to do with the latter, but as you say it is odd.

Evening Amanda,how can we take any of the sightings seriously taking into count the poor lighting and brief glimpses and yes it was odd for Mr Mac to name druitt it seems a reckless thing to do without any facts and it seems out of character.

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon

Considering you comments, surely, if someone did see the killer and did not report it, then their description would be as worthless as the witnesses who did come forward? Considering of course the poor lighting conditions, and fleeting glimpses, you allude to.

Observer

Evening observer,I'm not talking about a fleeting glimpse I'm saying maybe someone saw our killer at his grisly work or actually disturbed him in the act.

[Sam Flynn]

1 - 27

2 - 14

3 - 35

4 - 23

[robhouse]

Here are the results... in general, the results were similar to last time I posted this (See: http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=16150)

Everyone overestimatd the age of man #3, by upwards of almost 20 years. Woman #4 was all over the place, some were quite close, others underestimated her age by 7-8 years, one overestimated by about 30 years. Man #2 was closest overall.

So take into consideration that these photos are actually clearer than most of the looks the witnesses had, and you can study them. The actual witnesses in the Ripper case —most caught a brief fleeting glimpse of a man, some like Long, saw him only from the back, and didn't see the man's face at all. In general, the lighting was dark. And the witnesses gave their estimates of age several days after the fact.

So what conclusions can we draw from this. In short... the estimates of age may have been significantly off target... by significantly, I mean by ten years or more.

RH

[robhouse]

Incidentally, this goes hand in hand with my other favorite test: "What time is it right now?"

Try guessing (without looking) what time it is right now.

The accuracy depends on how recently you last checked the time, and how good your memory is (among other factors). I just did this, and my guess was off by an hour. So you can see how accurate a witness might be when estimating age, the time of events, etc.

RH

[Sam Flynn]

Here are the results...

Thanks, Rob. An interesting, and most instructive experiment.

[bigjon]

Can I just add to this my results of the demonstration we did at the conference in London last month.

For those unaware, we had two actors have an argument in the street which the conference delegates witnessed. The next day we asked them to complete eyewitness descriptions. Out of 125 attendees, 40 completed eyewitness reports.


The suspect was 30 years old, yet 1/4 of witnesses believed he was aged 18-25.

I used quite age ranges (10 year ranges for over 25's), so it would be interesting to see how many would still have been correct if smaller ranges were given.

http://jlrees.co.uk/#!/jtr-conference-2013/