Jack the Ripper At Last? by Helena Wojtczak

[HelenaWojtczak]

Thanks Amanda for your nice comments :-)

You're right, - Abberline "created" Chapman as a suspect. Apparently "some policemen" (unnamed) thought it, and this is what prompted a newspaper to interview Abberline. When the reporter spoke to Abberline, it turned out he'd already been thinking the same thing.

So, he may not have been the first to think it, but it was Abberline who was the first to put his "famous name" to the theory.

Plenty have come after him. Most recently, Norma Buddle and RM Gordon (who wrote FOUR books on the subject) seem pretty convinced.

Helena

[Amanda Sumner]

I initially started this thread to discuss Chapman and his crimes and also the newly published book on that very subject by Helena Wojtczak. We deviated from the initial topic and covered a variety of subjects, which was great, but what has come across, quite forcefully, is that any discussion of Chapman invariably leads to an in-depth discussion of Jack the Ripper and his crimes. I know, that if it was not for the fact that Abberline thought he had finally found his man, Chapman may well have disappeared into obscurity after a few years. However I feel that Chapman's story is an interesting one in its own right, whether he is a strong suspect or not. When I first discovered that my grandmother's cousin was a poison victim of Chapman's, I searched to find out more about it all and have only been able to read about his crimes in his relation to being a Ripper suspect. Not one publication wrote just about Chapman and his victims, or went into depth about the people involved, unless it supported or unsupported the Ripper claim. That in itself caused confusion, in my opinion, because facts got added or omitted to support those claims. When I came across Helena's book on Amazon, soon to be published, I bought one of her books, 'Women of Victorian Sussex', and I was impressed with how well it was written and the research that must have gone into it. Now I am hoping to find out more about Maud who I know next to nothing about. It will also be interesting to find out what her stance is on Chapman being the Ripper because, presumably, even she could not escape his connection to the Whitechapel fiend.
I wish her every success with her new book.
Thank you for all your comments on this thread, and I am sure some of my observations may have come across as rather naive, but I am new on here, and although I have always been intrigued with the Whitechapel murders, I am no expert Ripperologist!
For what it's worth, I've always felt that Jacob Levy was a good a suspect as any...

[Amanda Sumner]

[QUOTE

I guess Amanda is more logical/scientific and less emotional/superstitious than me!

Helena[/QUOTE]

Am I abnormal then? I just don't believe in bad blood, certainly of any that get's passed down. Nor do I believe in the sins of the Father....etc.

Everyone is different, I suppose, so it's a good thing that no one is likely to find out about their connection to JtR.

[Amanda Sumner]

Chapman didn't go to the USA till 1891, so IF he picked up an American accent - which I would have thought unlikely as he was only there for a year - he would not have had one in 1888.

Yes, I too am appalled at Arthur Fowler Neil..... and Gosling, Buddle, RM Gordon, Fabian, Adam, Thurgood, Eddleston... I'm not saying my book is perfect, but I have, at least, tried to trace back the source of every assertion before I present it as a fact.

My cat is particularly shocked by Eddleston.

Helena

My thoughts exactly. I can't remember where I had read about the American accent but, as you say, he did not go to America until 1891. He did insist that he was born in America though after his arrest.
I can't comment on all the authors, as I have not read most of them but I have read Adam's which I found very interesting, especially the trial. Gordon's book I have heard about, and that was enough for me to decide not to read his, but did not Eddleston put the whole Chapman saga in Islington? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that he had got the whole location wrong.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Would it? I thought I had read somewhere that Chapman spoke with an American accent, one, I suppose, that he had developed over the years. Probably, though, as you suggest, he would have still had a strong Polish accent back in 1888. Mind you, I have read so much about Chapman that is contradictory that it's hard to know what is what. One of the reasons why I want to read your book!
I read Neil's book recently and he got dates, names and places wrong which is quite shocking really, considering he was actually a policeman on the case.
Abby has made a valid point then, that, if any of the witness's had seen Jack, none of them reported any mention of accents.

By the way, love the photo of cat. He looks like he has finished the book!

Chapman didn't go to the USA till 1891, so IF he picked up an American accent - which I would have thought unlikely as he was only there for a year - he would not have had one in 1888.

Yes, I too am appalled at Arthur Fowler Neil..... and Gosling, Buddle, RM Gordon, Fabian, Adam, Thurgood, Eddleston... I'm not saying my book is perfect, but I have, at least, tried to trace back the source of every assertion before I present it as a fact.

My cat is particularly shocked by Eddleston.

Helena

[Amanda Sumner]

It's obvious that the man whom Lawende saw was involved in small talk with Kate Eddowes.

I'll ask you the same question Amanda. Whom did Lawende see standing at the entrance to Church Passage approximately 10 minutes before she was found dead?

I have no idea, Observer, but is it possible that it was not Eddowes and her killer?
I find it odd that if this was the lady in question then there was not a lot of time before she was found dead and mutilated in Mitre Square.
Lawende only identified her by her clothes and I have already given the opinion that people, then, dressed very similarly. I can't believe that he studied her clothes in much detail.
I am sure, given the extent of her injuries, that the killer would have needed far more time to do his grisly deeds than the very few minutes that were afforded to him if he was, indeed, the man at the entrance of Church Passage.

[Amanda Sumner]

Though in Chapman's case it would have been "VILL YOU?"

Helena

Would it? I thought I had read somewhere that Chapman spoke with an American accent, one, I suppose, that he had developed over the years. Probably, though, as you suggest, he would have still had a strong Polish accent back in 1888. Mind you, I have read so much about Chapman that is contradictory that it's hard to know what is what. One of the reasons why I want to read your book!
I read Neil's book recently and he got dates, names and places wrong which is quite shocking really, considering he was actually a policeman on the case.
Abby has made a valid point then, that, if any of the witness's had seen Jack, none of them reported any mention of accents.

By the way, love the photo of cat. He looks like he has finished the book!

[HelenaWojtczak]

What difference does the passage of time make? The fact that I had the blood of one of the most notorious killers in history running through my veins would disturb me. I would not want to find out more. My prerogative.

Regards

Observer

I agree totally with Observer. I would feel very emotionally disturbed at such a discovery, for precisely the reason Observer gives - the notion that the blood of a murderer was running through my veins.

But I also acknowledge that this stems from some less-than-scientific idea that murderous tendencies are somehow "genetic" and can be inherited, which isn't possible. (For example, apparently in the UK two women a week are murdered by their partners, yet the children of these tragic unions do not appear to commit more murders than children of non-murderers.)

I guess Amanda is more logical/scientific and less emotional/superstitious than me!

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

, I don't think a foreigner would find the words 'Will you?' difficult to say..

Though in Chapman's case it would have been "VILL YOU?"

Helena

[Observer]

incidentally, you're correct, it's very hard to project yourself into the situation where you have just discovered that JTR was an ancestor of yours. I was speaking off the top of my head. Like you, I might react very differently should I find that in truth, I am indeed a direct descendant of JTR.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

No problem Amanda. I would say the chances are extremely high that there are direct descendants of JTR out there now. Regarding the passage of time, it's not that many generations between then and now if truth be known. My Great Grandfather was born in 1860, in my opinion, very similar in age to JTR. My father remembers him, and he described him to me.

Regards

Observer

[Amanda Sumner]

What difference does the passage of time make? The fact that I had the blood of one of the most notorious killers in history running through my veins would disturb me. I would not want to find out more. My prerogative.

Regards

Observer

Absolutely, we are all different. I only asked because I'm interested.
I may be surprised and find myself feeling the same as you do. Fortunately it's unlikely that either of us will find out, but it's strange to think that there may be descendants out there of JtR who have no idea. Maybe it's a good thing that this case will probably never be solved.

Amanda.

[Observer]

What difference does the passage of time make? The fact that I had the blood of one of the most notorious killers in history running through my veins would disturb me. I would not want to find out more. My prerogative.

Regards

Observer

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Amanda

I certainly wouldn't have a fascination, or find it interesting should I discover that I was related to JTR. Certainly disturbed, I wouldn't want to publicise the fact.

Regards

Observer

Really? Why?
I can understand feeling like that if a member of one's family was a serial killer today, or in recent memory, but the Ripper died probably 125 years ago.
A less scrupulous person may well cash in on the notoriety of it all but I think I would be initially shocked/surprised but would want to find out more.
It's difficult to know, really, how one would react but I don't think I would find it personally disturbing after all these years.

Regards,

Amanda

[Observer]

It's obvious that the man whom Lawende saw was involved in small talk with Kate Eddowes.

I'll ask you the same question Amanda. Whom did Lawende see standing at the entrance to Church Passage approximately 10 minutes before she was found dead?