Chapman in America and the "ripper" killings there

[Mayerling]

[

{BTW masseuse = female. The male is a masseur.}[/QUOTE]

Hi Helen,

Thank you - I stand corrected.

As for Chaplin, someone once said his autobiography is a shameless piece of name-dropping. It is that, but two things stands in my mind in favor of his little piece on Chapman. Most people in the 1960s outside of England would not have remembered the "Borough Poisoning Case" of 1897 - 1902. Secondly he associates the incident with a kind of "sixth" sense of his when he felt somethng was wrong - and illustrates it not only with Chapman but with a second really long forgotten 1902 serial murderer Edgar Evans. For name dropping that is stretching it. He say less about Henri Desire Landru, whose life he made into one of the world's best dark comdies (MONSIEUR VERDOUX) than about those two.

Jeff

[HelenaWojtczak]

Hi Jeff

"Hi Helen, Thank you - I stand corrected."

In my next training session I'll get you to spell my name right.

"someone once said his autobiography is a shameless piece of name-dropping."

Did they indeed? Thank you for passing that on, because now I don't feel so guilty. You see, I was raised near Chaplin's birthplace and it was drummed into me that Chaplin was a "local hero" -- you're just not allowed to say anything critical about them!

"two things stands in my mind in favor of his little piece on Chapman. Most people in the 1960s outside of England would not have remembered the "Borough Poisoning Case" of 1897 - 1902. Secondly he associates the incident with a kind of "sixth" sense of his when he felt somethng was wrong - and illustrates it not only with Chapman but with a second really long forgotten 1902 serial murderer Edgar Evans. For name dropping that is stretching it."

Sorry you have lost me, why is "outside of England" significant, please?

Chapman was still sufficiently famous in the sixties in the UK for his waxwork to remain on display Madame Tussaud's until the middle of that decade. I mentioned Edgar Edwards (not Evans) in my book and yes I get the impression he was indeed forgotten.

However, my criticism of Chaplin isn't that he was name-dropping when he mentioned Edwards and Chapman. I don't think he was. No, I believe he was making up stories to "prove" his sixth sense, with the added piquancy that the people he had the "sense" about were multiple murderers.

Pedantry: I don't think Edwards "qualifies" for the epithet "serial murderer" because he killed all three victims together on the same day. His case is quite interesting, actually. He pleaded insanity and was thus fascainted to read about Chapman in the newspapers, to see how he fared with his "not guilty" plea. He never found out, though, he was hanged before Chapman's trial.

Helena

[Malcolm X]

Good luck with the new biography Helen. It looks like it may be full of information regarding Chapman's evil career, even if it has nothing that deals with the Whitechapel Murders seriously linking him to them.

There are only two things I can think of mentioning to you. One is Charlie Chaplin's story in his autobiography that he once got a glass of water from Chapman in the latter's pub but did not really drink any because (Chaplin claims this) he felt odd about taking it from Chapman.

The second was just an idea I once considered. I recently reviewed a book called THE MURDER OF THE CENTURY: THE GILDED AGE CRIME THAT SCANDALIZED A CITY & SPARKED THE TABLOID WARS by Paul Collins (New York: Crown Publishers, 2011) which deals with the 1897 murder of Willie Guldensuppe, a masseuse, by Martin Thorne and Augusta Nack. Thorne was executed for the killing in 1898, and Nack got a prison term. Guldensuppe was lured to the then Queens town of Woodside (this was the year before the county of Queens became part of the City of Greater New York). There he was stabbed and his body cut up. The body parts were discarded around the city and East River. Thorne was the one who cut up the body, and he was an immigrant (from Poland) and a barber. I thought that somehow elements of his crime might have been confused with the suspicions directed towards Chapman.

Jeff

yes and even the suspect description of the Carrie Brown murder is nothing like Chapman either.

.

[HelenaWojtczak]

yes and even the suspect description of the Carrie Brown murder is nothing like Chapman either.

.

Chapman was not in America when the killing took place.

Helena

[Malcolm X]

Chapman was not in America when the killing took place.

Helena

flipping heck

i'd better shoot myself, or quit before i've started !

[HelenaWojtczak]

flipping heck

i'd better shoot myself, or quit before i've started !

Well to be perfectly honest this is MY opinion, having studied his life in depth. R Michael Gordon believes he sailed over in April and I believe he sailed over in July.

It all depends which of two names on the ships passenger list you believe was him!


Helena

[Malcolm X]

Well to be perfectly honest this is MY opinion, having studied his life in depth. R Michael Gordon believes he sailed over in April and I believe he sailed over in July.

It all depends which of two names on the ships passenger list you believe was him!


Helena

yes, i knew from memory that the timing was very tight indeed, but what seals it for me is simply that it doesn't really matter, because he doesn't fit the suspect description anyway.

it's been many years since i studied Chapman, so i apologise for being so rusty, whatever the case i'm screwed anyway, because my knowledge is all based on this website.

i will now search Google about this so called disease that he had

[HelenaWojtczak]

Malcolm X

"doesn't really matter, because he doesn't fit the suspect description anyway."

I agree. Even if he WAS in America, so were millions of others!


"i'm screwed anyway, because my knowledge is all based on this website."

Then there is no hope for you

"i will now search Google about this so called disease"

I am on the edge of my seat!

Helena

[Malcolm X]

Malcolm X

"doesn't really matter, because he doesn't fit the suspect description anyway."

I agree. Even if he WAS in America, so were millions of others!


"i'm screwed anyway, because my knowledge is all based on this website."

Then there is no hope for you

"i will now search Google about this so called disease"

I am on the edge of my seat!

Helena

sorry i couldn't find anything, this was years ago anyway, plus on something like page 14 of Google.

the web is actually quite bad for research, it's either all about here, or posts relating to info found here, there's very little that's fresh and new.

[HelenaWojtczak]

sorry i couldn't find anything

GUTTED!

[Mayerling]

Hello Helena,

[See, I did finally correct my mispelling of your name.]

What I meant was that Chapman's crimes in the Borough were better known in England and the British Isles in the 1960s than they would have been in the U.S. or elsewhere abroad (and the Chaplin autobiography would be meant to be sold abroad). I do not believe the situation is the same today because more people would be aware of the names of suspects from the case in 2011 (in part from books on the Ripper, and television shows - and radio discussions, and websites like this one). In fact I could speak from some knowledge that the situation had changed in the New York Metropolitan area in the late 1970s. I worked at 60 Sutton Place, an apartment house in Manhattan, in the 1970s and early 1980s. One of my co-workers was a young fellow with the name of George Chapman. It turned out he knew of the criminal Chapman from seeing a television show (I believe it was the one with Stafford Johns that was shown twice in the 1970s
in the U.S.).

As for calling Edwards (again I stand corrected on names ) a serial killer, I am aware that he wiped out a small family to claim their store/house and possessions - and would be tried for that crime. But he was caught trying to kill another grocer for his property (Edwards apparently felt he had a winning system here - he did injure that second grocer badly). Perhaps, "would-be" serial killer is more accurate. Chaplin, by the way, claimed that Edwards had more victims (from what I recall of that brief anecdote). Edwards career was not well known in the U.S. in the 1960s. In fact, I doubt if it is now. I've only seen one book published here in the last three decades that had a chapter on him.

Jeff

[HelenaWojtczak]

Jeff


"See, I did finally correct my mispelling of your name."



"Chapman's crimes in the Borough were better known in England and the British Isles in the 1960s than they would have been in the U.S. or elsewhere abroad"

Definitely so!

"and the Chaplin autobiography would be meant to be sold abroad"

Also definitely so. But he didn't expect people to know who Chapman was, he provided a precis of his crimes, thus:

I as a boy stopped at a saloon in the London Bridge Road and asked for a glass of water. A bluff, amiable gentleman with a dark moustache served me. For some reason I could not drink the water. I pretended to but as soon as the man turned to talk to a customer I put the glass down and left. Two weeks later, George Chapman, proprietor of the Crown public house in the London Bridge Road, was charged with murdering five wives by poisoning them with strychnine. His latest victim was dying in a room above the saloon the day he gave me the glass of water



"One of my co-workers was a young fellow with the name of George Chapman."

I hope you didn't let him make you coffee!

"Perhaps, "would-be" serial killer is more accurate."

Indeed. The intent was there but he wasn't as clever as Chapman at covering up his murders.


"Chaplin, by the way, claimed that Edwards had more victims (from what I recall of that brief anecdote)."

I had no idea that Chaplin wrote about Edwards. Did he claim to take a glass of strychnine oops sorry water from him, too?

Checked on Amazon Look Inside == Edgar Edwards is mentioned but Amazon won't let me read the text.


"Edwards career was not well known in the U.S."

Well, Chapman had a USA connection of course, though his case WAS mentioned in the USA press BEFORE it ws discovered that he had been there.

"I've only seen one book published here in the last three decades that had a chapter on him."

Yes quite the nonentity because he was not a Ripper suspect.

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

I honestly think it is bullsh1t.

H

[Mayerling]

Probably is bullshit. He was trying to impress H.G. Wells (who probably was not impessed).

J

[HelenaWojtczak]

Probably is bullshit. He was trying to impress H.G. Wells (who probably was not impessed).

J

I think that if I had met a murderer I would have remembered the correct details of the case (from preserving press cuttings at the time, perhaps?)

Also, just a few weeks later the story hit the press that Chapman was Jack the Ripper, so it seems odd that Chaplin does not say he "met the Ripper".

Not sure how pub landlords felt about 13 year old boys coming in for a free glass of tapwater, either.

The whole story is too suspect, in my opinion.