Sims Versus Abberline

[HelenaWojtczak]

According to Complete History (pg. 449, rev. ed. 2002), Godley started suspecting Chapman during preparations for the case against him in 1903. This was followed by an article in the Daily Chronicle on March 23rd, 1903 (pp. 449-450):

"The police officers who have been engaged in tracing Klosowski's movements in connection with the three murders which he was charged, are forming some rather startling theories as to the antecedent history of the criminal. These theories are connected with the Whitechapel murders which startled the world some fifteen years ago, and were attributed to 'Jack the Ripper'. [...] In light of these and other definite statements, the police have considerable doubt wether the full extent of the criminality of Klosowski has been nearly revealed by the recent investigations, remarkable as they were in their extent.".

A few days (?) later, Abberline's comments regarding Chapman appeared in a Pall Mall Gazette interview (no date given):

"What an extraordinary thing it is that you should just have called upon me now. I had just commenced, not knowing anything about the report in the newspaper, to write to the Assistant Commissioner of Police, Mr. Macnaghten, to say how strongly I was impressed with the opinion that Chapman was also the author of the Whitechapel murders.".

Of course this does not prove that Godley was absolutely convinced about Chapman but I think it's safe to say that he rated him as a strong suspect.

Regards,

Boris

Boris, the date of the Pall Mall Gazette from which you have quoted is 24 March 1903. This is very significant and appears to prove that the "police suspicions" in the paper on the 23rd must have come from one of Godley's team and not from Abberline.

Helena

[bolo]

Wolf,

There is the newspaper report which mentions “The police officers who have been engaged in tracing Klosowski's movements in connection with the three murders which he was charged…” (which Sugden apparently means Godley) but no actual names are given nor are any of these police officers interviewed so that it might mean Godley or it might not.

the article does not mention Godley but since he was officially in charge of the investigation and arrested Klosowski/Chapman in October 1902, I think it's not too far-fetched to believe that "the police officers who have been engaged in tracing Klosowski's movements" were Godley and crew.

Of course that's no direct proof of Godley's opinion on Klosowski as a Ripper suspect but close enough in my humble opinion.

Helena,

Boris, the date of the Pall Mall Gazette from which you have quoted is 24 March 1903. This is very significant and appears to prove that the "police suspicions" in the paper on the 23rd must have come from one of Godley's team and not from Abberline.

thanks for this interesting piece of info which Sugden does not mention. I was thinking about this already, Godley could have adopted Abberline's position but if the date of the Pall Mall Gazette article is correct, it's possible that he independently formed an opinion on Klosowski as a Ripper suspect.

Regards,

Boris

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma and Boris.

You both missed this from Sugden:

“A coterie of top detectives – Abberline, Godley and Neil – thus developed the strong conviction that Severin Klosowski, the man hanged at Wandsworth as George Chapman, was also Jack the Ripper.”
Sugden, The Complete Jack the Ripper, revised paperback edition, page 455.

The problem here is that, as I said, nowhere is there any actual proof that Godley suspected Klosowski of being the Ripper.
Wolf.

Hi Wolf,
If you read my post you would see it wasn't a question of me ' missing it'----I just don't have my books with me to check it out as I am away from London at the moment.
However there is another reference somewhere in that chapter that refers to a policeman who writes a book on the Ripper in 1932.He refers not just to Godley ,Abberline and Neil but also to a some other policemen who he states considered Chapman as a very strong suspect for JtR.
Its important to realise Macnaghten, though a high ranking police officer was not a policeman in the sense that Abberline was ,who was a grass roots cop and worked on the ripper case night and day and was also sufficiently highly rated to be transferred to head the Cleveland Street case the following year.
Macnaghten had run a tea plantation in India up until 1887 ,so he had scant knowledge or experience of the type of the detective work that Abberline had.The same was true of Robert Anderson whose experience was mainly as a spymaster not a policeman and had started his career in Dublin Castle.
As for Sims well he was a sort of society journalist so he was a lay person whose knowledge and experience of crime did not compare with Abberline's.

Norma

[HelenaWojtczak]

Helena,

thanks for this interesting piece of info which Sugden does not mention. I was thinking about this already, Godley could have adopted Abberline's position but if the date of the Pall Mall Gazette article is correct, it's possible that he independently formed an opinion on Klosowski as a Ripper suspect.

I know it is correct.

But you don't need to trust me, as it is on this site! Under the piece on Chapman as a suspect there is this link

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/pall_mall_gazette/19030324.html

[HelenaWojtczak]

A quote from my forthcoming book:

"Detective Sergeant Arthur Neil worked on the Chapman case in 1903.

In 1932 he wrote his memoirs, Forty Years of Manhunting. In it he listed the reasons why he believed George Chapman was Jack the Ripper.

1, he was living in Whitechapel at the time; 2, he had surgical knowledge; 3, both he and the Ripper were ambidextrous; 4, ‘the only living description ever given by an eyewitness tallied exactly with Chapman, even to the height, deep sunk black eyes, sallow complexion and thick, black moustache’; 5, the Ripper killings ceased when Chapman went to the USA and a series of similar murders occurred there."

So that is Neil definitely confirmed as firmly in the pro-Klosowski-as-Ripper camp.

Perhaps it was ONLY him who spoke to the Daily Chronicle and not Godley or Sergeant Leak.

[Natalie Severn]

Thats the quote Helena! Bravo!

[HelenaWojtczak]

Thats the quote Helena! Bravo!

Cheers Norma.

I am finally getting the hang of it!

[Trevor Marriott]

A quote from my forthcoming book:

"Detective Sergeant Arthur Neil worked on the Chapman case in 1903.

In 1932 he wrote his memoirs, Forty Years of Manhunting. In it he listed the reasons why he believed George Chapman was Jack the Ripper.

1, he was living in Whitechapel at the time; 2, he had surgical knowledge; 3, both he and the Ripper were ambidextrous; 4, ‘the only living description ever given by an eyewitness tallied exactly with Chapman, even to the height, deep sunk black eyes, sallow complexion and thick, black moustache’; 5, the Ripper killings ceased when Chapman went to the USA and a series of similar murders occurred there."

So that is Neil definitely confirmed as firmly in the pro-Klosowski-as-Ripper camp.

Perhaps it was ONLY him who spoke to the Daily Chronicle and not Godley or Sergeant Leak.

So how can you prove that all of the above relate to the actual killer no one saw the killer. There is no evidence, the above is nothing more than a belief.

Just another police officer to add to the list of officers who had nothing more than a belief, and like all the rest surfaced many many years later after the murders ceased.

[Colin Roberts]

"I firmly believe that Carl Feigenbaum was Jack the Ripper and that his name will now enter history as that of the world's most notorious serial killer. For this man was responsible for a series of horrific murders of poor, unfortunate, helpless women on three continents over a period of six years and, after going to his grave, evaded detection for over a century."

Just another police officer to add to the list of officers who had nothing more than a belief, and like all the rest surfaced many many years later after the murders ceased.

[HelenaWojtczak]

So how can you prove that all of the above relate to the actual killer no one saw the killer. There is no evidence, the above is nothing more than a belief.

Just another police officer to add to the list of officers who had nothing more than a belief, and like all the rest surfaced many many years later after the murders ceased.

Trevor.
My intention is not to prove that the above relates to the actual killer. My intention was to prove that Arthur Neil had an opinion, that his opinion was that Chapman dunnit, and to pass on the reasons HE gave for believing that to be the case.

Regards,

Helena

[Abby Normal]

A quote from my forthcoming book:

"Detective Sergeant Arthur Neil worked on the Chapman case in 1903.

In 1932 he wrote his memoirs, Forty Years of Manhunting. In it he listed the reasons why he believed George Chapman was Jack the Ripper.

1, he was living in Whitechapel at the time; 2, he had surgical knowledge; 3, both he and the Ripper were ambidextrous; 4, ‘the only living description ever given by an eyewitness tallied exactly with Chapman, even to the height, deep sunk black eyes, sallow complexion and thick, black moustache’; 5, the Ripper killings ceased when Chapman went to the USA and a series of similar murders occurred there."

So that is Neil definitely confirmed as firmly in the pro-Klosowski-as-Ripper camp.

Perhaps it was ONLY him who spoke to the Daily Chronicle and not Godley or Sergeant Leak.

Hi Helena
Congrats on your book. What is the focus of your book and when is it coming out?

[HelenaWojtczak]

Thanks Aby.

This is now off topic so anyone following this thread please skip to the next post.

Abby, I am a writer in women's history and live in Hastings. Reading about Chapman last month got me intrigued because he lived here for 18 months and I was curious to know exactly where. A local man calling himself a ripperologist made a Youtube video to reveal to viewers the four buildings associated with Chapman in Hastings - viz, chemist shop, barber shop and his two homes. However when I watched it I discovered that three out of the four locations were wrong! And the fourth one was vague. So then I thought I'll make my own video, correcting his. Then I decided to write a short local history booklet. I started all this on 25th June and have so far written 30 A4 pages of new text and accummulated 20 illustrations. If I don't write much more that will result in an A5 or Royale size book of about 60 to 80 pages.

The other night I even knocked up a draft cover.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m534/helena1958/draftcover18july.jpg

Helena

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Boris.

the article does not mention Godley but since he was officially in charge of the investigation and arrested Klosowski/Chapman in October 1902, I think it's not too far-fetched to believe that "the police officers who have been engaged in tracing Klosowski's movements" were Godley and crew.
Of course that's no direct proof of Godley's opinion on Klosowski as a Ripper suspect but close enough in my humble opinion.

Sure, if you forget that Neil, one of the police officers involved in the Borough Poisoning Case, went on to write publicly of HIS belief that Klososwski was the Ripper while Godley stayed silent on the subject, as far as anyone knows. Based on what we DO know the evidence seems to support Neil as being the likely source for the Daily Chronicle article. What Godley’s thoughts were on all this are unknown.

Norma.

However there is another reference somewhere in that chapter that refers to a policeman who writes a book on the Ripper in 1932. He refers not just to Godley ,Abberline and Neil but also to a some other policemen who he states considered Chapman as a very strong suspect for JtR.

The 1932 book was by Neil so he’s not another policeman to add to the small list since he’s already on it. Abberline, of course, we known about but Sugden mentions Godley without any actual concrete evidence to prove what Godley thought. Sugden makes assumptions that Godley might have supported Klosowski’s candidacy but that’s all it is, an assumption. Let me repeat myself, again, nowhere is there any actual proof that Godley suspected Klosowski was the Ripper.

Wolf.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Now I am much further down the line in my research on Chapman, I agree wholeheartedly with Wolf.

Helena