Just a thought

[Open Minded]

George Chapman worked (and possibly lived) in George Yard where Martha Tabram was murdered. If this wasn't suspicious enough as I was reading through the Post-Mortem it states numerous stab wounds were created by a common pen knife and one wound with a larger dagger. I have two theories that perhaps have been over-looked.

The first is that perhaps the stab wounds were created by a razor used in the late 19th Century for hairdressing - thus would have been in the possession of Chapman. However this does not explain the other large wound, unless Chapman used a larger knife to kill Tabram and his razor from work to fulfil his desires.

My other theory was that if the pen knife theory was correct - which it very well could have been - it could have been a fold up pen knife used solely in military during the 19th Century which had a small blade on one end and another fold out blade which was much larger. This supports the idea that Tabram was infact murdered by the two soilders she was seen with.

Like I said above it is just a thought.

[Steven Russell]

Welcome to the boards, OpenMinded.

It would be very difficult to inflict stab wounds with a razor, I think. This was demonstrated by none other than Patricia Cornwell in her documentary about Sickert.

But this double-bladed military knife is very interesting and not something I've seen suggested before. Did soldiers carry such things? If so, we need only have one soldier and one weapon.

Best wishes,

Steve.

[Steven Russell]

Having said that about razors, GregBaron has asked on the hairdresser/barber thread what other knives a hairdresser/barber might have had. We know that barbers would perform minor surgery and it is difficult to imagine them using a razor to do so.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Open Minded]

Hi Steve,

I agree stabbing with a razor would be hard especially given the large volume inflicted on Tabram, but some razors used in the 19th Century were very much like knives and even were pointed.

As for the dual-bladed knife; there is a number of them out there used by British soldiers. One in particular that had one small blade one larger one; one in particular being issued to the British army in the latter part of the 19th century into the Boer war - as were various other folding knives.

[GregBaron]

Barber & Pen knife...

Hi gentlemen,

I've attached a couple of pictures I found. The barber razors look like they would be good for cutting a throat but probably not opening an abdomen. The dual blade is interesting. I still find it hard to believe that the Tabram murderer killed her with a long blade or puncture tool like below then regrouped or re-bladed and then stabbed her 38 more times. It seems a wild frenzy with one blade makes more sense..? Also, can't these pen knive blades snap shut if not careful where the user might slice themselves? Anyway, if you all can find any knives of which you speak that differ from these that would be enlightening..........


Greg

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

George Chapman worked (and possibly lived) in George Yard where Martha Tabram was murdered.

Yes, Chapman worked in a barber shop under the White Hart Pub at the corner of Whitechapel High Street and George Yard but this was in 1890, not in 1888. During the Ripper murder he most likely was at 126 Cable Street, St. George's-in the East.

But this double-bladed military knife is very interesting and not something I've seen suggested before.

Actually this type of knife has been suggested more than once over the years here on the boards. One suggestion I remember was that it might have been a sailor's knife which had two blades of different size plus a marlin spike.

Wolf.

[Rubyretro]

I have also suggested a double bladed folding knife before -such as a hooving knife, which a groom would carry.

[Open Minded]

Well please forgive me for repeating your point. I hope this merely sheds some light on it again.

And I can't be certain but do hooving knives have a point? My point (no pun intended) is that could you stab someone with one or would you only be able to cut/chop as it has a flat end. Also in any instance i've come across a hooving knife even the smaller blade is still rather large - well too large to be mistaken for a pen knife.

[Open Minded]

Sorry Greg for ignoring your point. The knife I was reffering to was the second one you picture which is from the Boar war. Perhaps the first stab was with the larger blade - it flicked and cut him, and he realised it would be easier to use the smaller blade with blunt edges. Also this could explain two other points: The dubious report of wounds coming from two different hands; perhaps one of his hands was cut and found it more comfortable stabbing with the other hand. The other point is it could explain the sheer number of stab wounds as perhaps he felt more was needed to destroy his victim as there was less conviction of the stabs with his weaker hand.

[GregBaron]

Poor knife choice...

Hey Open Minded et al,

If a weapon like the one you mentioned (pocket or pen knife) was used on Tabram it makes me think the murder was unplanned; ie, a spontaneous rage kill. Something with retractable blades that can cut the user if delivered at a greater than 90 degree angle is a poor murder weapon indeed. As far as I know these blades cannot be locked in place. Also changing blades in mid murder seems absurd. This is certainly unlike the subsequent ripper murders where I imagine the blade looked more like one of the attached….


Greg

[Rubyretro]

Elisa Claps was murdered by multiple stab wounds in Italy in 1993
-two different weapons were used by one killer during the attack -a knife and a pair of scissors.
-the killer did wound his hand and needed stitches
-the murder comprised of the victim walking up to a church attic with her murderer who attacked her in a blitz attack from behind.
-Elisa had 13 wounds of which 12 were stabs and 1 was a cut. The wounds were at different angles.
-9 of the wounds were made by the murderer reaching around her body from behind, and three were made from the front.
-her top was pulled up and bra cut, and the top of her trousers cut.
-her body was 'posed' (although hidden).

we can surmise that the whole thing lasted about 10 minutes, if her presumed murderer's explanation of his 'timings' is correct.

The murder was premeditated.

The second murder of which Danilo Restivo is accused (and there may be more to come), had a different MO but same 'signature'. He turned to mutilation, cutting off his victim's breasts and placing them by her head.