Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

It is extremely likely, given the short amount of time that elapsed between the Lawende sighting and the discovery of Eddowes' body, that the man and women described were the killer and Eddowes respectively. Lawende's impression was that they were talking quietly, with her hand on his chest, which is the opposite of a blunt contractual agreement involving only gestures and opened wallets.

Hi Abby,

I don't think Klosowski's appearance corresponds to any of the witness descriptions, personally. He fell considerably short in terms of age (22 in 1888, whereas most witnesses described a man of around 30 or more), and was apparently of slight build. As far as the proposed change in methods is concerned, noted criminologist John Douglas was unusually emphatic in stating that a serial poisoner was unlikely to convert into a serial mutilator.

All the best,
Ben

[GregBaron]

Not fair of mustache.........

I agree with Ben here..........Sailor Man doesn't fit Chapman's description and although we don't know him to be the killer of Eddowes the likelihood is high as there is only about a 5 minute window of opportunity.......Chapman was also 23 like Koz....younger than any witness description........also if he was fond of his handlebar mustache at that time as he was later this style would probably be noticed.....some bit of 'chatting up' also seemed necessary and is in line with witness accounts............


Greg

[Abby Normal]

I agree with Ben here..........Sailor Man doesn't fit Chapman's description and although we don't know him to be the killer of Eddowes the likelihood is high as there is only about a 5 minute window of opportunity.......Chapman was also 23 like Koz....younger than any witness description........also if he was fond of his handlebar mustache at that time as he was later this style would probably be noticed.....some bit of 'chatting up' also seemed necessary and is in line with witness accounts............


Greg

hi Greg, Ben
I have always had my doubts about if Lawende saw JtR, which is ironic as he apparently was considered the best witness by police. he never identified Eddowes body and is the only witness to describe a fair haired suspect (unless of course Blocthy's carrotty mustache qualifies). Most of the witnesses describe a dark haired man with dark mustache, who is shorter than average. Age I think, is harder to accurately describe, especially in the dark. And someone once described SK as always looking the same age? perhaps he looked older at 23 than the average Englishman.

PS. One thing sailor man and SK had in common, however, was a peaked cap.

[Natalie Severn]

I'm afraid I do, CD.

The more reliable witnesses attested to some degree of conversation taking place between the supposed victim and her male companion (who invariably looked nothing like Klosowski, I ought also to add). It is clear, for example, that the fair moustache-sporting man observed by Lawende was engaging Eddowes in conversation, rather than simply gesticulating and pulling out his wallet.

Ben

Ben,
PC Smith's 30 September 1888 12.30 pm
Berner Street :

5ft 7 ins[Chapman's exact height]
about 28[he was 23]
clean shaven
dark coloured clothes and [hard felt deer stalker hat]-respectable looking

William Marshall 29 September 1888 11.45 pmsame night as PC Smith
Berner Street,12.30 am
5ft 6 ins
decently dressed in black coat dark trousers,peaked cap.

Mrs Elizabeth Darrell or Long
Hanbury Street,5.30 am 8th September 1888
saw only his back
over 5ft
taller than Annie Chapman
dark
deer stalker hat dark coat
couldn't be sure of age as didnt see face but thought 40

George Hutchinson 9 November 1888
5ft 6 ins
age 34-35
pale with dark hair and eyelashes
slight moustache curled at ends

Who exactly was eavesdropping on these verbal exchanges?

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

If I see a man and a woman facing each other and I see the women speaking, I am going to assume that they are having a conversation even if I do not see the man speaking.

All Chapman needed was a few phrases to conduct business with a prostitute and I think he was quite capable of doing that. Think of Butch and Sundance. They didn't need to become fluent in Spanish while in Bolivia. All they had to do was learn how to say was "this is a stickup." "Give us your money." With guns drawn the message was quite clear.

c.d.

[Natalie Severn]

I agree with Ben here..........Sailor Man doesn't fit Chapman's description and although we don't know him to be the killer of Eddowes the likelihood is high as there is only about a 5 minute window of opportunity.......Chapman was also 23 like Koz....younger than any witness description........also if he was fond of his handlebar mustache at that time as he was later this style would probably be noticed.....some bit of 'chatting up' also seemed necessary and is in line with witness accounts............


Greg

Greg,if you go to see Mitre Square you will see spot where Catherine Eddowes was murdered.It is on the very far side of the square in [what was then] a dark corner but it was right next to an exit onto Mitre street.Nobody saw her enter the square with Lawende's man.She could have cut through the square to a pub she knew would serve her on the corner at 29 Algate and been jumped on from the shadows.She could even have been having a pee.Lawende's man was probably saying," no thanks Missus' because Catherine was in a bit of a state after her spell in the cells.

[GregBaron]

The shadow swooper...

Greg,if you go to see Mitre Square you will see spot where Catherine Eddowes was murdered.It is on the very far side of the square in [what was then] a dark corner but it was right next to an exit onto Mitre street.Nobody saw her enter the square with Lawende's man.She could have cut through the square to a pub she knew would serve her on the corner at 29 Algate and been jumped on from the shadows.She could even have been having a pee.Lawende's man was probably saying," no thanks Missus' because Catherine was in a bit of a state after her spell in the cells.

Interesting observation Natalie and certainly possible...I wondered on another thread if any of the prize witnesses saw JTR as I think he may have swooped in after the supposed sightings took place...

This also means all the other prize witnesses you mentioned could have the wrong guy for the same reason......

But not to get off thread..........I still wonder about Chapman's command of English, whether our gentile women would service a newbie Pole and his knowledge of the ins and outs of Whitechapel.....even if we discard witness descriptions.............

Greg

[Ben]

Hi Abby,

It isn't the case that "most" witnesses described a man with dark hair and a dark moustache, at least not those witnesses who were likely to have seen the killer. PC Smith's man was clearly not Stride's killer, let alone the ripper, and the same may be said of Marshall's man. If Schwartz was telling the truth, Stride's assailant was obviously the broad-shouldered man with the brown moustache (no "darkness" specified) who arrived from the direction of Commercial Street, and evidently looked nothing like Klosowski. As for Lawende, he believed that Eddowes' items of clothing were "the same" as those worn by the women he observed in Church Passage.

It is therefore possible that the couple observed were not Eddowes and her killer, but certainly not probable.

There was never any suggestion that Klosowski looked older than his actual age in 1888, and the chances are that he only acquired a peaked cap during his time in Hastings when he developed a nautical interest.

Hi Norma,

I'm not sure what you mean about "eavesdropping", but William Marshall heard the middle-aged man in Stride's company say "You would say anything but your prayers", which is hardly something a recent arrival from Eastern Eurpose would say. As for the other witnesses you mentioned, it is clear that they formed the impression that the various "couples" observed were engaging in conversation.

[c.d.]

Hi Greg,

Would a gentile woman service a newbie Pole? Depends. Does he have money to pay for it?

c.d.

[c.d.]

If I knew that I would soon be moving to a foreign country, I would spend some time learning basic phrases. Chapman seems to be a pretty clever fellow. I expect that he would have done the same. If he wanted to pick up prostitutes, I would expect him to learn the phrases required to do so.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Both Lawende and Levy formed the impression that the two were talking quietly together, although the latter stated that he did not hear anything the man said. Had Klosowski been the "man" in question, I would have expected little or no communication to take place, and a far more obviously "contractual" scene to play out. Similarly, I would also have expected a conspicuously young, dark and foreign looking individual, rather than the 30ish man with the fair moustache described by Lawende. But your mileage may vary, of course.

Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Abby,

It isn't the case that "most" witnesses described a man with dark hair and a dark moustache, at least not those witnesses who were likely to have seen the killer. PC Smith's man was clearly not Stride's killer, let alone the ripper, and the same may be said of Marshall's man. If Schwartz was telling the truth, Stride's assailant was obviously the broad-shouldered man with the brown moustache (no "darkness" specified) who arrived from the direction of Commercial Street, and evidently looked nothing like Klosowski. As for Lawende, he believed that Eddowes' items of clothing were "the same" as those worn by the women he observed in Church Passage.

It is therefore possible that the couple observed were not Eddowes and her killer, but it certainly isn't probable.

There was never any suggestion that Klosowski looked older than his actual age in 1888, and the chances are that he only acquired a peaked cap during his time in Hastings when he developed a nautical interest.

Hi Norma,

I'm not sure what you mean about "eavesdropping", but William Marshall heard the middle-aged man in Stride's company say "You would say anything but your prayers", which is hardly something a recent arrival from Eastern Eurpose would say. As for the other witnesses you mentioned, it is clear that they formed the impression that the various "couples" observed were engaging in conversation.

He did say he heard that yes Ben but its generally agreed Chapman arrived in England in June 1887.His whereabouts are unknown until he stays with the Radins -nobody knows the exact 5 month period he was there but it seems to have been around early 1888.
A man as bright and determined as Chapman would have probably spoken English like a native after 18 months and September 30th was about 15 months after his arrival.

[Ben]

I'm unaware of any evidence that Klosowski was living in the East End as early as 1887, Norma. I'm afraid I doubt very much that Klosowski would have "spoken English like a native" after 18 months, assuming he was even in England for that length of time prior to the murders, which I also consider unlikely. Moreover, as I've already observed, the evidence of Wolf Levisshon suggests that he wasn't speaking English until after his visit from the States.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi CD,

Both Lawende and Levy formed the impression that the two were talking quietly together, although the latter stated that he did not hear anything the man said. Had Klosowski been the "man" in question, I would have expected little or no communication to take place, and a far more obviously "contractual" scene to play out. Similarly, I would also have expected a conspicuously young, dark and foreign looking individual, rather than the 30ish man with the fair moustache described by Lawende. But your mileage may vary, of course.

Ben

Not as I understand it Ben.If Klosowski arrived in the UK in June 1887,he would have been able to hold a perfectly good conversation in English if he was busy working in two barber shops---the one in Cable Street catered more for the Irish dockers anyway---he would have picked it up rapidly if he was of normal intelligence.

[c.d.]

We need to put this whole "speaking English" question into some kind of context. Are we talking about being able to speak in front of Parliament and arguing for going off the gold standard or are we talking about knowing just enough English so that he could pick up a willing prostitute?

c.d.