Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[HelenaWojtczak]

There's a huge amount that the LDS have filmed that's not included in their searchable indexes of births, marriages and deaths. I think that will apply to most of the Polish records. I was really suggesting that you might find it useful to look at the films themselves.

Oh I see. Do you think that would tell us whether the Klosowskis moved to Zwolen or Kamienin?

[Errata]

Secondly, a question: does everyone agree with Errata that it was illegal for a non Jewish boy to live with a Jew as an apprentice?

Helena

So I obviously made this statement without qualification, which was probably disingenuous of me, although I honestly didn't think about it.

I know that in places in the Pale it was in fact illegal for Jews to live with non-Jews. And it wasn't specifically aimed towards children or apprenticeships. I think it was originally a way to keep Jews out of flats, or multiple housing situations. But it was binding to other situations as well.

I cannot swear it was true throughout the Pale. I think it was, just because the entire idea of the Pale of Settlement was to enforce segregation of the Jews, but I know of no universally binding law that speaks to the issue.

I do know that there is sort of a population bubble that these things applied to more that other population bubbles. Towns with less than a 15% Jewish population tended to ignore them as long as they didn't make themselves a problem. Towns with a more than 75% Jewish population were typically sort of surrendered over to them. 25% to 50% tended to be the hardest fought, I guess because the non-Jewish residents were trying to prevent a majority. You typically find the biggest abuses in this range, and Zwolen was right there at the 30% (I think).

So it is a somewhat informed guess that in Zwolen it would be illegal, but it is still only a guess. My apologies for insinuating otherwise.

[Chris]

Oh I see. Do you think that would tell us whether the Klosowskis moved to Zwolen or Kamienin?

It's impossible to be sure, but with luck you might find records of his parents' deaths, or of siblings' deaths or marriages, that would give information about where they lived during the relevant period. The records are in Russian rather than Polish after 1868.

At he was attending school at [?]Krasienin at the age of seven, it does seem likely that the family had moved there.

One other possible source would be the Books of Residents, which in theory list all the inhabitants of each place. Unfortunately those haven't been microfilmed; it would be a question of either going to the archive or employing a researcher:

http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/bor.htm

It may be that Krasienin would be covered by the records for Lublin - and there do seem to be some surviving Books of Residents for Lublin. The State Archives website seems to have been reorganised since the advice on jewishgen.org was written, but the search form for the ELA database is here:

http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/ela.php?l=en

[Errata]

I just found ANTONIO & STANISLAW KLOSOWSKI currently have a business at Posanie 11 37-450 Stalowa Wola, about 40m south of Zwolen. I've never heard of a Pole called Antonio till I read about Seweryn's father. It's a Spanish-Italian sounding name that maybe HIS parents to a shine to. Seems a stunning coincidence that there have been TWO Antonio Klosowskis, surely they must be gg-father and gg-son?

http://www.antonio-klosowski.pl/en/onas.html

Well, Antonio is pretty uncommon but it is a saint, as of course is Severin, and Stanislaw while we're at it. It could be a fairly orthodox family.

On the other hand, the whole Klosowski thing was bothering me until I realized I've been to Klosow (the northern one. Not the southern one.) It was just another cute Polish town I drove through, but the only thing remarkable about it was that pre-1945 it was in Germany. As was the southern Klosow.

Which sort of begs the question what on earth were German Christians doing in the Pale? Do we know when the family hit Poland?

[Chris]

I know that in places in the Pale it was in fact illegal for Jews to live with non-Jews. And it wasn't specifically aimed towards children or apprenticeships. I think it was originally a way to keep Jews out of flats, or multiple housing situations. But it was binding to other situations as well.

I cannot swear it was true throughout the Pale. I think it was, just because the entire idea of the Pale of Settlement was to enforce segregation of the Jews, but I know of no universally binding law that speaks to the issue.

According to the Jewish Encyclopaedia, the gubernia of Kielce (which contained Zwolen) wasn't actually part of the Pale:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=27&letter=P

Perhaps that would have made a difference?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Ab,

I understand what you’re saying, but I just don’t think the 2 sets of murders are compatible. They are in fact very different.

The short time span of Ripper murders suggest a compulsion killer, while the poison murders obviously indicate a very patient killer. The Ripper murders don’t suggest a killer who was interested in causing pain to living persons and seeing them suffer, while Chapman’s murders do obviously suggest this. Chapman didn’t get his hands dirty as he used ‘clean’ poison, while the Ripper used a knife to cut open his female victims and pull out organs and intestines.

And this all happened over 10 years apart with no known murders between the Ripper and poison series by Chapman. To me, the 2 sets are so far apart that I find it unlikely to have been committed by the same hand. The way I see it is that Chapman killed just because he could, the Ripper rather killed because he had to.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank
I see where you are coming from and your arguments make sense, I just see more similarities and don't place as much emphasis on the diferences of MO and possible psychological differences.

To me Chapman was a sociopath who showed no empathy towards women whatsoever. They were objects of his desire-whatever that desire may be. They were for him to control, manipulate and dominate. Same as JtR.

Perhaps in 1888, Chapman was feeling the frustration of being in a new foriegn place and had not acquired the skills (or tools)neccessary to control and dominate women as he did with the poisonings but he could control, dominate, manipulate and murder a prostitute.

Also, an interesting link-Chapman was looking for poison at the times of the ripper murders, and threatened his girlfriend with a knife during the poisonings.

[HelenaWojtczak]

I know that in places in the Pale it was in fact illegal for Jews to live with non-Jews. I cannot swear it was true throughout the Pale. I think it was, just because the entire idea of the Pale of Settlement was to enforce segregation of the Jews

Thanks for coming back on that one!

Thing is, that the gentile Klosowski was apprenticed to the Jewish Rapaport for nearly five years isn't in dispute as there is documentary evidence.

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

Unfortunately those haven't been microfilmed; it would be a question of either going to the archive or employing a researcher:

http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/bor.htm

http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/ela.php?l=en

Thanks Chris for providing these. I only hope I can make head or tail of how to use them. Each site one visits has a different interface, and it's frustrating when all you want is the info, not to tie oneself in knots with the research.

My father was born in Lublin, so if I manage to get into the databases, I can kill two birds (ptaki) with one stone!

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

On the other hand, the whole Klosowski thing was bothering me until I realized I've been to Klosow (the northern one. Not the southern one.) It was just another cute Polish town I drove through, but the only thing remarkable about it was that pre-1945 it was in Germany. As was the southern Klosow.

Which sort of begs the question what on earth were German Christians doing in the Pale? Do we know when the family hit Poland?

Sorry for my ignorance, Errata, but which German Christians are you referring to?

[curious4]

Chapman

Hello all,

Sorry but I just can´t take Chapman seriously as a candidate. I don´t believe a maniac with an escalating taste for mutilating his victims - just getting worse and worse - would calm down and become a poisoner a few years later.
Just because a man is a known serial killer it doesn´t follow that he would switch from one method to another, it is out of character - and most probably he had lost it altogether after MJK and would have been put in one kind of mental institution or another.

Regards,
C4

[Natalie Severn]

Norma, I am concerned and curious about this misspelling of Nagórna. Is it really on his original Polish documents? That does seem strange. Rather like English people writing "Hastings" as "Hastingsk".

I don't know the answer to that Helena.

[Natalie Severn]

(b) WHY he chose to send his son 100m away when there must have been LOADS of surgeons etc in nearby towns that he could have been apprenticed to.

Another DUH moment -- nobody on these forums seems to have mentioned the possibility that the Klosowski family moved away from Nagorna after he was born. Silly me to have taken that at face value :-(

How do we know the Klosowskis didn't also live in Zwolen?

Don't know the answer to that either ....btw these towns were tiny----no bigger than villages,so there may have been fewer surgeons around to be apprenticed to than you think.

[Natalie Severn]

(b) WHY he chose to send his son 100m away when there must have been LOADS of surgeons etc in nearby towns that he could have been apprenticed to.

Another DUH moment -- nobody on these forums seems to have mentioned the possibility that the Klosowski family moved away from Nagorna after he was born. Silly me to have taken that at face value :-(

How do we know the Klosowskis didn't also live in Zwolen?

Don't know the answer to that either Helena-sorry ....btw these towns were tiny----no bigger than villages,so there may have been fewer surgeons around to be apprenticed to than you think.

[Chris]

Incidentally, I see there's now a "Virtual Shtetl" website, that contains useful information on Polish towns and their Jewish communities:

http://www.sztetl.org.pl/en/

[ChrisGeorge]

Don't know the answer to that either Helena-sorry ....btw these towns were tiny----no bigger than villages,so there may have been fewer surgeons around to be apprenticed to than you think.

I think that is the likely answer to why he had to go away to be apprenticed to a surgeon.

Chris