Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[Abby Normal]

But why should I have a source for something that never happened? In fact, I could go further. Where is there an example of a mutilator transforming into a slow poisoner? And Holmes clearly wasn't a slow poisoner.

And I'm not being pedantic. JtR clearly required immediate satisfaction, which is why he presumably took such great risks. Conversely, Chapman presumably gained satisfaction from watching his wives, to quote Abberline, "being slowly tortured to death by poison." This is, of course, indicative of two very different types of personality.

Now, in respect of the uniqueness argument, I've already given an example of a serial poisoner operating in the same time period, and same geographical area, as a violent serial killer who mutilated. Here's another example.

John Sweeney and Anthony Hardy (known as The Camden Ripper), both committed violent murders in Camden, a small district of London. And They operated over the same time period and had similar MOs

Thus, Sweeney murdered two lovers, dumping their severed bodies in canals. Hardy, who may have killed up to nine people, dismembered some of his victims. Incredibly, Hardy lived just a few hundred yards from where one of Sweeney's victims was found.

These coincidences were so remarkable that Sweeney's defence lawyers auggested, unsuccessfully, that Hardy may have been responsible for the aforementioned murder: http://archive.camdennewjournal.com/...-camden-ripper

Hi JohnG
but what if the motive was different?

kemper killed his grandparents with a shot gun, later strangling and stabbing victims, raping them, and post mortem mutilation and necrophilia.

William suff beat his 2 month old daughter to death, later becoming another post mortem serial killer like kemper.


totally different reasons for killing, different victimology-hence different method.

[Abby Normal]

Well, if you held a gun to my head, I'd probably go with Joseph Flem(m)ing, although the case against him is by no means solid. That said, I find him more compelling than the others because he was a native East Ender, aged nearly 30 in 1888, and was probably well-built as he was a dock labourer. He was an ex-lover of Kelly who was apparently still visiting after their relationship had ended, was said to have ill-used her on some of those visits. He became insane and was committed to an asylum under an alias in 1892, where he didn't like people asking him questions, and had delusions that he was being pursued by men who wanted to kill him. However, there's some question about his height - he was listed as 6' 7", which is extremely tall even by today's standards. It's possible that this one entry was a misprint for 5' 7", which seems more reasonable but, if not, he'd have made a very conspicuous Ripper!

Do I think he was the Ripper? No. However, the question of his height notwithstanding, he has much more going for him than most.

Thanks Sam
yeah ive got flemming on my second tier of least weak candidates. not if he was 6, 7* though.


Theres also some who have posited that he was hutch, but I guess that's for another thread.

[Batman]

And I'm not being pedantic. JtR clearly required immediate satisfaction, which is why he presumably took such great risks. Conversely, Chapman presumably gained satisfaction from watching his wives, to quote Abberline, "being slowly tortured to death by poison." This is, of course, indicative of two very different types of personality.

The only reason we are here again is that you won't address the fact that JtR (irrespective of whoever he is) would not rip a partner to get rid of her. That should have been obvious from the start, yet here you are saying how he wouldn't poison anyone. Yet poisoning would have to be at least one the very methods considered by a JtR type character to get rid off a spouse that would attract the least attention and certainly not suspicion he is JtR (which you are some others here are evidence for!).

Now, in respect of the uniqueness argument, I've already given an example of a serial poisoner operating in the same time period, and same geographical area, as a violent serial killer who mutilated. Here's another example.

I also demonstrated how your Shipman example has totally different demographics. Millions of people vs tens of thousands and 9km^2 vs 400km^2. No comparison.

John Sweeney and Anthony Hardy (known as The Camden Ripper), both committed violent murders in Camden, a small district of London. And They operated over the same time period and had similar MOs

Thus, Sweeney murdered two lovers, dumping their severed bodies in canals. Hardy, who may have killed up to nine people, dismembered some of his victims. Incredibly, Hardy lived just a few hundred yards from where one of Sweeney's victims was found.

These coincidences were so remarkable that Sweeney's defence lawyers auggested, unsuccessfully, that Hardy may have been responsible for the aforementioned murder: http://archive.camdennewjournal.com/...-camden-ripper

Without looking I'll let you do the demographics because that is what we need to access your point. Area size and population sizes please and timeframe.

[John G]

Because saying something never happened is a claim that requires evidence to support it. You shifted the burden of proof onto yourself instead of asking for evidence for what happened. Once you do that in any logical discussion it's a bad move because now you have to 'prove your client innocent' instead of us 'proving he is guilty'.

... and knowledge of the crimes not reported anywhere.

Sure handwriting analysis is subjective in part, but that is why he included facts only he knew along with posting them evidence.

His MO changes were so significant and even you believe they aren't linked.

Which proves my point. That's why he was including evidence and writing stuff for investigators to read. He wanted them linked.

But why should I have a source for something that never happened? In fact, I could go further. Where is there an example of a mutilator transforming into a slow poisoner? And Holmes clearly wasn't a slow poisoner.

And I'm not being pedantic. JtR clearly required immediate satisfaction, which is why he presumably took such great risks. Conversely, Chapman presumably gained satisfaction from watching his wives, to quote Abberline, "being slowly tortured to death by poison." This is, of course, indicative of two very different types of personality.

Now, in respect of the uniqueness argument, I've already given an example of a serial poisoner operating in the same time period, and same geographical area, as a violent serial killer who mutilated. Here's another example.

John Sweeney and Anthony Hardy (known as The Camden Ripper), both committed violent murders in Camden, a small district of London. And They operated over the same time period and had similar MOs

Thus, Sweeney murdered two lovers, dumping their severed bodies in canals. Hardy, who may have killed up to nine people, dismembered some of his victims. Incredibly, Hardy lived just a few hundred yards from where one of Sweeney's victims was found.

These coincidences were so remarkable that Sweeney's defence lawyers auggested, unsuccessfully, that Hardy may have been responsible for the aforementioned murder: http://archive.camdennewjournal.com/...-camden-ripper

[Batman]

Gassing is not archetypical poisoning, though. Any confirmed examples of that process?

Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their MO. - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their signature - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
Q. Show me a serial killer that also poisoned. - H.H.Holmes
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that also poisoned. - H.H.Holmes
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that transformed into a poisoner later. - Well technically H.H.Holmes did that.
Q. Show me a serial mutilator that transformed into an archetypical poisoner later. - well...

Well, that goal post has been for quite a walk around the place hasn't it? Are you sure there are no more strings attached?

Let's say I haven't found one yet.

How exactly does that interfere with the fact that if JtR had a partner he wanted to murder, the least likely way he would do it is by ripping which would only identify him as the ripper. So what method would he use that would be hard to detect and not identify him as the ripper?

[Sam Flynn]

Who do you think are/ is one of the least weak?

Well, if you held a gun to my head, I'd probably go with Joseph Flem(m)ing, although the case against him is by no means solid. That said, I find him more compelling than the others because he was a native East Ender, aged nearly 30 in 1888, and was probably well-built as he was a dock labourer. He was an ex-lover of Kelly who was apparently still visiting after their relationship had ended, was said to have ill-used her on some of those visits. He became insane and was committed to an asylum under an alias in 1892, where he didn't like people asking him questions, and had delusions that he was being pursued by men who wanted to kill him. However, there's some question about his height - he was listed as 6' 7", which is extremely tall even by today's standards. It's possible that this one entry was a misprint for 5' 7", which seems more reasonable but, if not, he'd have made a very conspicuous Ripper!

Do I think he was the Ripper? No. However, the question of his height notwithstanding, he has much more going for him than most.

[Fisherman]

I answered this several times and referenced the book.

Yeah, it was established. They found several pieces of his gassing equipment and even caused an explosion of one tank searching through the hotel where they discovered the body parts. Many of his rooms were soundproof rooms and had special vents to send the poison gas through to asphyxiate his guests. They had trapdoors to drop a body through into the basement for dismemberment.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Full_confession_of_H._H._Holmes_%28page_2%29.jpg

Here is an illustration of a trunk he used to gas two girls.

Geyer who was following him uncovered a lot of it. At trial, it was even forensically established that someone was dead before he chloroformed them. He did this to Pitezel to fake his suicide.

Gassing is not archetypical poisoning, though. Any confirmed examples of that process?

[Abby Normal]

None of the ones identified so far.

Well ive often said theyre all weak, some just less weak than others.lol.

Who do you think are/ is one of the least weak?

[Batman]

Why do I need a source for something that's never happened?

Because saying something never happened is a claim that requires evidence to support it. You shifted the burden of proof onto yourself instead of asking for evidence for what happened. Once you do that in any logical discussion it's a bad move because now you have to 'prove your client innocent' instead of us 'proving he is guilty'.

Matching handwriting? Really? That requires subjective analysis. I mean, here's someone arguing that Rader was The Zodiac based on matching handwriting! https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...dwriting-match

And here's an example of three handwriting experts confirming that the fake Hitler Dairies were written by Hitler! https://science.howstuffworks.com/ha...-analysis2.htm

... and knowledge of the crimes not reported anywhere.

Sure handwriting analysis is subjective in part, but that is why he included facts only he knew along with posting them evidence.

His MO changes were so significant and even you believe they aren't linked.

Which proves my point. That's why he was including evidence and writing stuff for investigators to read. He wanted them linked.

[John G]

John G, I take it you don't have a source for the claim there are no serial mutilators turned poisoner as I asked. Quite the claim.



The Devil in White City by Larson describes poisonings, tortures, burning alive, and the recovery of body parts from his hotel include dismemberment. So my source is Larson's book and it's references.



I have none yet because you won't allow for the serial poisoner to not get caught and keep going murdering in others ways (H.H.Holmes).



JtR wouldn't murder any partner as he murdered as JtR so that there wouldn't be a connection. So to try and disassociate JtR from poisoning doesn't make sense. Hence my question in bold above which enforces the point.



Yes, it has been established for the Zodiac's MO changes.

Zodiac switched to knife at Lake Berryessa. He left his handwriting on his victim's car door which was matched to the letters. He also noted his murder was 'by knife' because of the MO change.

When some journalists still doubted it was the Zodiac, he changed his MO again (taxi cab in the city, male-only victim) and shot Stein in the back of a cab. He then took a piece of his bloodied shirt and mailed it to the press with a letter. This established it was the Zodiac who murdered Stein and the writing on letters and was matched back to the car door at Lake Berryessa.

Zodiac even told them he was changing MO.

Why do I need a source for something that's never happened? Matching handwriting? Really? That requires subjective analysis. I mean, here's someone arguing that Rader was The Zodiac based on matching handwriting! https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...dwriting-match

And here's an example of three handwriting experts confirming that the fake Hitler Dairies were written by Hitler! https://science.howstuffworks.com/ha...-analysis2.htm

[Batman]

I have asked you before, but have had no answer: Is there confirmation that Holmes poisoned people, or are you going on what he claimed himself only? Were bodies exhumed and examined? Was it established that there was poisoning?

I answered this several times and referenced the book.

Yeah, it was established. They found several pieces of his gassing equipment and even caused an explosion of one tank searching through the hotel where they discovered the body parts. Many of his rooms were soundproof rooms and had special vents to send the poison gas through to asphyxiate his guests. They had trapdoors to drop a body through into the basement for dismemberment.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Full_confession_of_H._H._Holmes_%28page_2%29.jpg

Here is an illustration of a trunk he used to gas two girls.

Geyer who was following him uncovered a lot of it. At trial, it was even forensically established that someone was dead before he chloroformed them. He did this to Pitezel to fake his suicide.

[Fisherman]

The Devil in White City by Larson describes poisonings, tortures, burning alive, and the recovery of body parts from his hotel include dismemberment. So my source is Larson's book and it's references.

I have asked you before, but have had no answer: Is there confirmation that Holmes poisoned people, or are you going on what he claimed himself only? Were bodies exhumed and examined? Was it established that there was poisoning?

[Batman]

John G, I take it you don't have a source for the claim there are no serial mutilators turned poisoner as I asked. Quite the claim.

We don't know that HH holmes poisoned or mutilated anyone.

The Devil in White City by Larson describes poisonings, tortures, burning alive, and the recovery of body parts from his hotel include dismemberment. So my source is Larson's book and it's references.

Give me an example of a serial mutilator transforming into a serial poisoner.

I have none yet because you won't allow for the serial poisoner to not get caught and keep going murdering in others ways (H.H.Holmes).

As you have illustrated, Chsmpan's motive for getting rid of his partners was completely different to what motivated JtR. Hence, no connection.

JtR wouldn't murder any partner as he murdered as JtR so that there wouldn't be a connection. So to try and disassociate JtR from poisoning doesn't make sense. Hence my question in bold above which enforces the point.

Zodiac changed his MO? How do you know? It's never been proved exactly who was, and who wasn't, a Zodiac victim.

Yes, it has been established for the Zodiac's MO changes.

Zodiac switched to knife at Lake Berryessa. He left his handwriting on his victim's car door which was matched to the letters. He also noted his murder was 'by knife' because of the MO change.

When some journalists still doubted it was the Zodiac, he changed his MO again (taxi cab in the city, male-only victim) and shot Stein in the back of a cab. He then took a piece of his bloodied shirt and mailed it to the press with a letter. This established it was the Zodiac who murdered Stein and the writing on letters and was matched back to the car door at Lake Berryessa.

Zodiac even told them he was changing MO.

[Trevor Marriott]

Two serial killers operating in a 9km^2 around the same time in a population density of a few tens of thousands is unheard of. Even in poor places with similar conditions across the world back then through to today. Meaning there is such low probability that Chapman is JtR. That's the statistical argument.

There doesnt have to be two serial killers if you take the canonical five as an example

One serial killer victims Eddowes Chapman Nicholls

Stride murdered by a.n.other perhaps Michael Kidney

Kelly also murdered by a.n.other

There are many dissimilarities with Stride and Kelly which suggest they were not murdered by the same hand as the three mentioned, and neither killed by the same killer, you have to remember Whitechapel was a violent area of the East End at that time.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

Do you have a source for the claim

That's quite a claim.

Also, let's look at the evolution of this claim.

1. Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their MO. - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
2. Q. Show me a serial killer that changed their signature - BTK, Zodiac, EARONS
3. Q. Show me a serial killer that also poisoned. - H.H.Holmes
4. Q. Show me a serial mutilator that also poisoned. - H.H.Holmes
5. Show me a serial mutilator that transformed into a poisoner later. - ?

It's such a specific criterion that it has the capacity to deceive the reader into thinking that someone like BTK, (Dennis Rader) hasn't gone from serial strangulation to serial compliance officer from hell that doesn't murder (for 14 years). Or like EARONS, went from shooting people to bludgeoning their heads into the point that EAR crimes were not connected to ONS crimes and internally the ONS crimes didn't get connected up.

Anyway, we have covered why JtR would not rip his partner if he wanted to murder her. It would draw attention to himself.

So let me ask you the question again, that seems to really get avoided.

If JtR wanted to get rid of a partner by murder, what way would be the least likely to get caught and the least likely to get associated with his previous crimes?

We don't know that HH holmes poisoned or mutilated anyone. Give me an example of a serial mutilator transforming into a serial poisoner.

As you have illustrated, Chsmpan's motive for getting rid of his partners was completely different to what motivated JtR. Hence, no connection.

Zodiac changed his MO? How do you know? It's never been proved exactly who was, and who wasn't, a Zodiac victim.