Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[Adam Went]

Hey Nats,

Fascinating stuff. How far is it to Fleet Street and the infamous "other" demon barber?

Cheers,
Adam.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hey Nats,

Fascinating stuff. How far is it to Fleet Street and the infamous "other" demon barber?

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam

You're probably talking only around two miles if you walked west from the East End into the old City. As to how long it would take to walk it, it would depend on how "fleet" you were.

All the best

Chris

[Abby Normal]

I went to Cable Street on December 26th 2009 to see Fiona Shaw in a recital of The Wasteland at London's very old and beautiful East End theatre ,Wilton's.
Walking past where George Chapman had his barber shop in Cable Street this wasteland of a place next to railway arches and parallel to the river made me think of how easy it would have been for him living so close to the murders to commit both the Torso murder of Pinchin Street and the murders of the double event and make his escape from the latter and clean himself up quickly, undetected.Its about 10-12 minutes from Mitre Square and 3 minutes from where Dutfield Yard was in Berner Street and in those days ,as now, these streets were and are,not well lit.Walking past you see clearly how close he was to the railway arch in Pinchin Street where one of the torso murder victims were placed---sort of directly opposite his shop.This was in 1889 too a good six months after Mary Kelly's death and Chapman was living there alone.He didn't have his wife Lucy living with him there until he married her on October 29 1889.The shop had a basement too where he could have cut up bodies in secret.
I think he is a strong suspect who cannot be discounted.
Best,
Norma

Thanks Norma
When were the dates he lived in cable street? Can anyone post a map of it pinpointing where he lived?

[glyn]

Id suggest Chapman (without knowing him persobnally of course) would be quite capable of changing his method of killing.Why wouldnt he be?

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Norma
When were the dates he lived in cable street? Can anyone post a map of it pinpointing where he lived?

Hi Abby,
In the Post Office Directory of 1889 he is down as being there in a barber shop of which he is the proprietor---he would have had a rental lease.In order to be entered in the Post Office Directory for the year 1889 he would have had to have been living in Cable Street [number 123 I think] at the time before.at latest 14 December 1888-though strictly speaking before 2nd December 1888.So he was running a barber shop there some time in the Autumn or early winter of 1888.He was also living there with his wife Lucy Baderski from the end of October 1889 when they married until some time in 1890.
Chris is right, Fleet Street and the barber shop of Sweeney Todd are about a mile and a half away--don't forget the City of London is a square mile and the EastEnd borders it,but Fleet Street is quite long and the barber shop of the demon barber was at the far end by the old church which still has the two statues of little men in the bell tower banging on its bells every hour.I think that church was old even then---two hundred years ago!!!! The pie shop vanished long ago along with the barber shop.One or two very old shops still stand but on the other side.

[Adam Went]

And how many pies you were carrying at the time, Chris!?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,
In the Post Office Directory of 1889 he is down as being there in a barber shop of which he is the proprietor---he would have had a rental lease.In order to be entered in the Post Office Directory for the year 1889 he would have had to have been living in Cable Street [number 123 I think] at the time before.at latest 14 December 1888-though strictly speaking before 2nd December 1888.So he was running a barber shop there some time in the Autumn or early winter of 1888.He was also living there with his wife Lucy Baderski from the end of October 1889 when they married until some time in 1890.
Chris is right, Fleet Street and the barber shop of Sweeney Todd are about a mile and a half away--don't forget the City of London is a square mile and the EastEnd borders it,but Fleet Street is quite long and the barber shop of the demon barber was at the far end by the old church which still has the two statues of little men in the bell tower banging on its bells every hour.I think that church was old even then---two hundred years ago!!!! The pie shop vanished long ago along with the barber shop.One or two very old shops still stand but on the other side.

Thanks!

[HelenaWojtczak]

Abby:
Some of the witness did describe a man of foreign appearance - they probably didn't hear enough of his voice at any time to be able to judge his accent, but there certainly should have been one, given that he spent his childhood and teen years in Poland and only came to England around 1887. Plus of course it's fraught with danger to try and decipher just what each witness meant by "foreign appearance".

Adam, I have an idea that might help. The East End at that time was home to thousands of eastern European Jews. Jews have certain physical racial characteristics, and so might appear to "look foreign" to the English. Klosowski was not Jewish, and so would have looked like any other native European.

(I ref. my own case - my mother married twice, both times to Poles. My father was Polish but not Jewish. My half-siblings father was Polish-Jewish. My siblings all look Jewish, but I don't.)

[ChrisGeorge]

Adam, I have an idea that might help. The East End at that time was home to thousands of eastern European Jews. Jews have certain physical racial characteristics, and so might appear to "look foreign" to the English. Klosowski was not Jewish, and so would have looked like any other native European.

(I ref. my own case - my mother married twice, both times to Poles. My father was Polish but not Jewish. My half-siblings father was Polish-Jewish. My siblings all look Jewish, but I don't.)

Hi Helena

Natalie could probably confirm this but I think it is also true to say that Klosowski, although a Gentile, sometimes posed as a Jew.

Chris

[GregBaron]

Jews unrecognizable...

Hi all,

I think when we talk Jewish looking we tread on very shaky ground. As pointed out by other posters, some of whom are Jewish, to ascribe a look to a Jew can be problematic. Barring the classic Semitic hook nose or the orthodox black outfits with the curlycue sideburns, I don't think we can accurately say someone looks Jewish....now Eastern European Jews may be more likely to have dark hair and eyes than perhaps a ginger headed Irishman but beyond that I don't think we can assert much. When I look at photos of the era it appears to me Jews pretty much wore the outfits everyone else was wearing probably in an attempt to assimilate. My best guess on the foreign claiming witnesses is that the accent is the giveaway followed by perhaps a slightly darker appearance...............

Greg

[HelenaWojtczak]

Hi Helena

Natalie could probably confirm this but I think it is also true to say that Klosowski, although a Gentile, sometimes posed as a Jew.

Chris

Indeed, but that would not make eyewitnesses getting a glimpse in the dark from a distance think he looked like one.

Greg, not saying all Jewish people have all the characteristics. Saying that a lot of Poles are apple-cheeked blondes, and you didn't see many c19th Jews that looked like that! My half-sister dyes her hair blonde, but still has a very noticeable Jewish look about her, which she and her Jewish siblings remark on (when they aren't busy remarking on their own Jewish looks!) I only wish I could post pics to illustrate my point.

I've wandered around a few concentration camp museums in Poland, and the facial differences between the Jewish and the German visitors were very clear, even though the former were not wearing curlicue sideburns.

[GregBaron]

Photos....

Hi HelenaWojtczak,

I posted a link a while back with photos of Victorian Jews........perhaps you can find it and illustrate your points.......I think it was on a Kozminski thread.......if nothing else some very interesting photos I think.....when I get a moment I'll see if I can find it as well....



Greg

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi all

It's also true to say that a number of Jews hid the fact that they were Jewish by turning Christian, because of the discriminations to which the Jews were subject over the centuries. So it could well be that some of the "Christian" Poles who looked Jewish had that aspect because they did have Jewish blood.

Chris

[Natalie Severn]

from the trial of George Chapman in 1903.

Evidence for the Prosecution.
Wolff Levisoiin, examined—I live at 135 Rosslyn Road, South Tottenham, and am a traveller in hairdressers7 appliances. I have known the accused since 1888, when I met him in a hairdresser's shop in Whitechapel. I spoke to him in Yiddish. He said he came from Warsaw. I knew him as Ludwig Zagowski. We met from time to time up to 1890. He told me that in Warsaw he had been practising in the medical line as a u feldscher " at the Praga Hospital. I have been a " feldscher " myself. I had seven years' training in the Russian Army. A " feldscher " is an assistant to a doctor. I talked to the accused about medicines, and he asked me if I could get him a certain medicine, but I said no, I did not want to get twelve years.
Hi All,
This extract from Chapman's trial may be of interest in the information it gives about 'George Chapman' by Wolff Levisohn who knew him in Warsaw.
He says he knew him[more or less continuously] from 1888 to 1890.
Best
Norma

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

It is indeed fraught with danger to try and identify just what was meant by somebody of a foreign appearance, and it's a shame that in certain instances this wasn't elaborated on further.

Essentially it would be the same as me saying I saw somebody who had an Asian appearance - it's quite generic and there's many different variables that could come out of such a statement.

It's been said that in Victorian London, "foreigner" was pretty much a synonym for "Jew". In any case we are fortunate enough to have photographs of Klosowski in life, something of a rarity, so we can judge his appearance for ourselves rather than relying on generic, possibly even slightly racist descriptions.

Cheers,
Adam.