Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[Roy Corduroy]

St George in the East

Chapman happened to live just a few minutes away from Dutfield's Yard on the other side of the railway arches in Cable Street.

1 Dutfields Yard
2 Torso
3 Swedish Church
4 Mortuary
5 Stride & Kidney (Devonshire Street)
6 Severin Klosowski
7 Martha Tabram (Star Place)
8 Henry Birch's Milk Stand

A Joseph Martin, Photographer
B The Old Rose

Map made with assistance of Rob Clack - Roy

[Errata]

How about attending to the issue Errata raised about the near impossibility of accurately translating the Schwartz's Yiddish into English ?

It's not impossible, merely pretty difficult. Think of it like aphasia, where you can't remember the word for something, despite the fact it's a common word. Say you can't remember the word "bathroom". You can still get your point across. "I left it in the.... room, with tile, and there's a sink, and toilet, and a tub"

But nouns are easy. Adjectives are harder. "he looked like a not pleasant person, but not like physically unattractive or sad, more in a way in which I could easily imagine he could hurt me". The word he is looking for there is "mean" but that might take a few guesses to get it right. The translator could opt for angry, or even drunk and the person he is translating for is not going to know he used the wrong adjective.

[Ben]

I don't know where today's hairdressers keep their scissors

At the hairdressers' shops where they work, of course.

Where's the evidence that Klosowski worked two or more barber shops at the same time?

There was a barber in Fleet Street who murdered a number of his clients. The tale has been exaggerated

No. The "exaggerated tale" has resulted in the fictional notion that "there was a barber in Fleet Street who murdered a number of his clients".

The real ripper's knife was not a "cut throat razor".

How about attending to the issue Errata raised about the near impossibility of accurately translating the Schwartz's Yiddish into English?

It isn't particularly convincing, given the total impossibility (never mind "near") of the police recording an entirely false description of the men referred to by Schwartz.

[Garry Wroe]

Which in itself is an irrelevance if, as seems overwhelmingly likely on a strictly evidential basis, Stride was not a victim of the Whitechapel Murderer.

[Natalie Severn]

To this day ,professional hairdressers at say Vidal Sassoons , are very careful not to take another person's scissors by mistake and each has there own small case of essentials.
...Which they can't put in a locker or keep separate by some other means?

This is surely preferable to carting scissors and other paraphernalia about in a newspaper parcel. Not a lot of evidence, let alone "tradition", for this particular practice I'm afraid.

I don't know where today's hairdressers keep their scissors etc but they certainly still have their own cases.In Chapman's day when they worked in two barber shops or more they would have carried them around in some sort of packet .

I think you'll find that Sweeney Todd is a fictional character, Norma.

No.There was a barber in Fleet Street who murdered a number of his clients.
The tale has been exaggerated but it has a basis in fact.Also the 'cut throat' razor is the term used to describe a razor that was in use up until relatively recently in the traditional barber shops in Central London.

How about attending to the issue Errata raised about the near impossibility of accurately translating the Schwartz's Yiddish into English ?

[Ben]

To this day ,professional hairdressers at say Vidal Sassoons , are very careful not to take another person's scissors by mistake and each has there own small case of essentials.

...Which they can't put in a locker or keep separate by some other means?

This is surely preferable to carting scissors and other paraphernalia about in a newspaper parcel. Not a lot of evidence, let alone "tradition", for this particular practice I'm afraid.

like the one that Sweeney Todd used to cut the throats of his victims

I think you'll find that Sweeney Todd is a fictional character, Norma.

I also think it's highly unlikely that the ripper's knife - the real ripper's knife - was a razor, even a sharp, knife-like one.

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Especially since Yiddish is an incomplete language. Words that didn't apply to life in an Eastern shtetl just didn't exist in the language at that point, and so speakers were forced to either come up with an allegorical word, or describe the missing word in detail.

For example: In Yiddish, a gun is a gun is a gun. There is no different word for a cannon, a machine gun, a handgun, etc. So then you have to add on a bunch of descriptives.

Thanks Errata.I know they had difficulty with the translator.Its written down in police reports.

[Natalie Severn]

But he didn't need to take the items "to and from work", for the same reason that a fireman doesn't take a hose to and from the fire station. They are already on site. In addition, Klosowski's work tools were very unlikely to have included the sort of knife used by the ripper.

Not so.Hairdresser's by tradition,carry their own tools of the trade about with them.To this day ,professional hairdressers at say Vidal Sassoons , are very careful not to take another person's scissors by mistake and each has there own small case of essentials. Klosowski would have too- especially as he was a jobbing hairdresser and worked in two or more places at a time in the early days.
A barber's tools were a joke in so far as they mostly used a 'cut throat' razor,shaped like a 'V' like the one that Sweeney Todd used to cut the throats of his victims.But some used a single very sharp knife---you see it used in films---and that too would not have belonged to the shop where the barber was employed but to him himself---so yes,he would almost certainly have carried his barber and hairdressing tools about with him.

Norma

[Errata]

We have only Schwartz's word for any of this and its on police record that Schwartz couldn't speak a word of English---we have no idea what may have been lost in translation----

Especially since Yiddish is an incomplete language. Words that didn't apply to life in an Eastern shtetl just didn't exist in the language at that point, and so Yiddish speakers were forced to either come up with an allegorical word, or describe the missing word in detail.

For example: In Yiddish, a gun is a gun is a gun. There is no different word for a cannon, a machine gun, a handgun, etc. So then you have to add on a bunch of descriptives.

[Ben]

We have only Schwartz's word for any of this and its on police record that Schwartz couldn't speak a word of English---we have no idea what may have been lost in translation

It is highly unlikely that Abberline, Swanson et al should have failed to clarify precisely what Schwartz meant to convey in his description. As such, I very much doubt that such details as "broad shoulders" and "full face" were reported in error.

A barber carrying a wrapped a knife ,scissors and a shearer would not need a very big newspaper packet or other wrapping to take to and from work.

But he didn't need to take the items "to and from work", for the same reason that a fireman doesn't take a hose to and from the fire station. They are already on site. In addition, Klosowski's work tools were very unlikely to have included the sort of knife used by the ripper.

As far as Ethel Radin is concerned, she would obviously have made reference at the trial to Klosowski having joined her and her husband in Wentworth Buildings in 1888, if it really happened. Instead, the evidence suggests that his association with the couple came to an end when he left West India Dock Road. As for Levisshon, the point has been argued before, but I wouldn’t place to much reliance on his claim – as reported by H.L.A dam – that he worked at the White Hart in 1888. The evidence of other witnesses who knew him rather better would tend to indicate otherwise.

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

What evidence is there to suggest that Klosowski was the same height as Smith's man, who was 5'7"? I'm not doubting you, but it doesn't seem to accord with other descriptions of Klosowski as an "undersized" man. Stride's killer was almost certainly the broad-shouldered individual who arrived from the Commercial Street direction, apparently after Smith's man had departed. Neither of the men described by Schwartz looked anything like Klosowski.

We have only Schwartz's word for any of this and its on police record that Schwartz couldn't speak a word of English---we have no idea what may have been lost in translation----

I think any policeman who came across a barber transporting the tools of his trade through the streets of the East End in the small hours of the morning would certainly have been suspicious, especially if those tools contained a sharp knife.

A barber is not exactly a heavy goods deliverer. Every hardresser these days has a small often plastic envelope with their own scissors in and one or two other implements of no great size.
A barber carrying a wrapped a knife ,scissors and a shearer would not need a very big newspaper packet or other wrapping to take to and from work.

Another factor that argues very strongly against Klosowski's culpability is geography. It makes no sense at all to bolt from Mitre Square to Cable Street via Goulston Street, which necessitated heading in the direction of the heart of the murder district, and presumably police traffic from two police stations

I understand the Radin's moved from West India Dock Road where Chapman/Klosowski had lodged with them for five months in 1888, to Wentworth Buildings ,Goulston Street some time later in 1888.He may therefore have found this a temporary comfort zone,a place where people he had just been living with had moved to.

OR

If he possessed a key to the Whitehart's basement barber shop in George Yard where Levisohn said, under oath ,that he saw him between 1888 and 1890 ,that again would perfectly explain his Goulston Street escape route.George Yard is just a two minute walk from Goulston Street.
Best Wishes
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Well thats right Errata.In fact the witnesses who saw victims with a man shortly before their murder such as Elizabeth Long[Annie Chapman] and Lawende [Catherine Eddowes] said he was a little taller than the victim.Both Annie Chapman and Kate Eddowes were just over 5ft tall.

[Ben]

I agree entirely, Errata, but it would still surprise me if anyone referred to a height of 5'7" or thereabouts as "undersized" in 1888.

[Errata]

Hi Norma,

What evidence is there to suggest that Klosowski was the same height as Smith's man, who was 5'7"? I'm not doubting you, but it doesn't seem to accord with other descriptions of Klosowski as an "undersized" man. Stride's killer was almost certainly the broad-shouldered individual who arrived from the Commercial Street direction, apparently after Smith's man had departed. Neither of the men described by Schwartz looked anything like Klosowski.

How useful is height as a descriptive, unless the guy is either 4'5" or 7'8"? I mean 5'7" does not seem to particularly narrow the field as far as suspects go. And outside of those amusement park guys, I don't know anyone who can steadily identify someone's height with any accuracy. Most people work off of the "shorter than me" or "taller than me" system. And that assumes their perspective is accurate, which it often isn't.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

What evidence is there to suggest that Klosowski was the same height as Smith's man, who was 5'7"? I'm not doubting you, but it doesn't seem to accord with other descriptions of Klosowski as an "undersized" man. Stride's killer was almost certainly the broad-shouldered individual who arrived from the Commercial Street direction, apparently after Smith's man had departed. Neither of the men described by Schwartz looked anything like Klosowski.

I think any policeman who came across a barber transporting the tools of his trade through the streets of the East End in the small hours of the morning would certainly have been suspicious, especially if those tools contained a sharp knife.

Another factor that argues very strongly against Klosowski's culpability is geography. It makes no sense at all to bolt from Mitre Square to Cable Street via Goulston Street, which necessitated heading in the direction of the heart of the murder district, and presumably police traffic from two police stations.

All the best,
Ben

P.S. As for the "well-dressed" individuals described, they were either fabrications or had nothing to do with the ripper.