Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[John G]

Is there some overlap somewhere because Manchester and Yorkshire are far apart. Maybe he worked in both places but was there serial killing in both?

Most of Sutcliffe's serial killings were in West Yorkshire: Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Leeds. West Yorkshire and Manchester are not far apart- West Yorkshire borders Greater Manchester. Bradford is less than 35 miles from Manchester, for example. Moreover, Sutcliffe also committed murders in Manchester.

The Shipman Inquiry concluded that he began serial killing in 1971, whilst working in Pontefract, West Yorkshire. In 1974 he became a GP in Todmorden, also in West Yorkshire.

[Batman]

The reason Chapman denied being Klosowski could be that he wanted to pretend he had no medical knowledge (e.g. of poisons).

John: "Harold Shipman was living and working in West Yorkshire during the same period that Sutcliffe was active in the same area" GOOD POINT!


Helena

Is there some overlap somewhere because Manchester and Yorkshire are far apart. Maybe he worked in both places but was there serial killing in both?

[John G]

I don't think Keppel is a limiting factor at all. In fact the consequence of his work is an expansion not a reduction of the number of victims.

It expands because signature can vary.

According to your unique hypothesis! As I've explained to you numerous times if signatures varied linking crimes would be impossible, signature analysis would be useless and Keppel would be looking for another job!

[Batman]

keppel is c5 + 1

I don't think Keppel is a limiting factor at all. In fact the consequence of his work is an expansion not a reduction of the number of victims.

It expands because signature can vary.

[HelenaWojtczak]

The reason Chapman denied being Klosowski could be that he wanted to pretend he had no medical knowledge (e.g. of poisons).

John: "Harold Shipman was living and working in West Yorkshire during the same period that Sutcliffe was active in the same area" GOOD POINT!


Helena

[John G]

Israel Keyes
Lust killer who even robbed banks. Like Chapman was also an arsonist.

Yes, and Sutcliffe broke into cars, and I'm sure there's lots of other precedents for murderers committing robberies and theft. But robbing banks isn't the same as murdering someone- it's a totally different type of crime! Interestingly, though, neither killer evolved into a slow poisoner, so no precedent there either!

[John G]

Reductio ad Absurdum

John, I actually already informed you it isn't a science and said this point is important. Look -http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=336336&postcount=85

Hence its a psychology, not a science (important).

Hello Batman,

I must admit I admire your strategy! When it suited your purposes, i.e. in the Different Killers thread, you were quite happy to cite Keppel. Now that it doesn't suit your purpose you've abandoned profiling and resorted to faith-based reasoning!

However, the irony here is that your reasoning is Reductio ad Absurdum. In other words, your argument in favour of Chapman relies on the hypothesis that it would be unlikely that several serial killers, albeit with different signatures, could be operating in the same general area over a 15 year period (this is clearly wrong anyway, for example, Harold Shipman was living and working in West Yorkshire during the same period that Sutcliffe was active in the same area) However, if Chapman was JtR it wouldn't just be a rare occurence but something completely unique, i.e. a violent killer transforming into a slow poisoner!

Perhaps your next hypothesis will be that JtR was suffering from Muncheauseans syndrome by proxy!

[Batman]

how about this for signature variation

Israel Keyes
Lust killer who even robbed banks. Like Chapman was also an arsonist.

[Batman]

profiling not a science

John, I actually already informed you it isn't a science and said this point is important. Look -http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=336336&postcount=85

Hence its a psychology, not a science (important).

[John G]

Profiling is not and never was a science. Remember, Helena's book also profiles Chapman as not being JtR. Same as you.

You seem to have argued the opposite in the "Different Killers" thread, where you kept citing Keppel

Yes, one torso. Trow discusses why he thinks the 87-89 cases are connected.

You seem to be twisting/interpreting the facts to suit your own unique hypothesis. I mean, what about the Tottenham Court Torso (1884)?

It depends. If you link the 73 cases with 87-89 or not. Trow also explains how body parts in the river is nothing new. What is new about the 87-89 cases is how they appeared in the way they where dumped.

Tottenham Court Torso?

Covered this in #2,#3

No
#2.

Chapman was still a young man obviously capable of serial killing. Lust murderers can and do pause, even for long periods of time, especially due to family matters.

Slow poisoners aren't lust killers
#3.

A lack of evidence for lust killers who also poisoned may be absent due to the fact that even by the late 19th century poisoning can be detected and quickly.

Slow poisoners aren't lust killers

Also we know MOs and signatures can change.

Signature's don't change. If they did signature analysis would be useless. This is again the opposite of what you arguing in the Different Killers thread. In fact we've already been through this numerous times. There is not a single example of a sex killer evolving into a slow poisoner. Please don't cite Schlesinger, I've already explained that to you.

There is no way you can get significant anatomical knowledge from reading Aristotle's book linked above. My point is, one of the few books recovered from him was one full of illustrations of women's torso's (head, arms, legs gone) with their abdomens opened up.

Not sure what your point is here

Hopefully that's sorted.

No
Why did he want to hide by not admitting to be Klosowski?

Who knows?

[Batman]

Why do you find it suspicious that someone lived in a densely overcrowded neighbourhood a few years after a murder was committed there? My neighbour murdered someone whilst I was actually living next door to him, but that doesn't mean I am implicated.

Sorry to hear that.

This is again silly. He had a load of medical books; it's inevitable that some are going to show people's insides. I've owned such books in the past (the evidence is mounting for me being a murderer now!)

Did he really have loads of books let alone medical books? I see a 5 volume set recovered and this book of Aristotle. A few additional books/notebooks from the recovered items. It appears to amount to a single small book shelf worth.

Nobody has ever argued that Chapman had no interest in medical matters: he trained for nearly five years as a feldsher, he needed anatomical knowledge ~ especially of obstetrics as they acted as midwives.

Chapman had anatomical knowledge as that of a midwife. Yes. However as you can see a few people here feel from your book that the old butcher-feldsher which doesn't exist since the early 18th century means Chapman no longer has ANY medical knowledge beyond healing warts.

At the end of the day, your first point stands: he WAS living in the East End throughout the murders, and the chances of two serial killers .... etc. However, never ever forget that the EE was extremely densely overcrowded, and so maybe its not such an "amazing coincidence" that two serial killers lived there ~ one operating at the time and one 15 years later.

Population density/overcrowding is something that has increased in parts of the world and more places with this problem have appeared than decreased. Population growth. Malthus. All that.

Chapman must have been aware of Jack the Ripper; maybe Jack showed him how easy it was to get away with multiple murder. That might have influenced him.

But, never forget, also, it's never been proved that Jack the Ripper was a serial killer. "He" could have been five or more different murderers. Also, if the torso killer was someone different, we are looking at THREE serial killers.

Helena

Well that sets up the question. Which is more likely? Three serial killers operating in the same area a short time apart or one serial killer who committed other crimes and was still functional at the time of his arrest?

[Batman]

As Helena has already noted this is all starting to get a bit silly. It appears that you have elected to abandon any pretence of a science based approach in favour of...well, I'm really not sure anymore!

Profiling is not and never was a science. Remember, Helena's book also profiles Chapman as not being JtR. Same as you.

I mean, even your interpretations of the factual evidence is seriously flawed. You say that the "Whitechapel murders include the Torso murders". However, only one Torso victim was found in Whitechapel- The Pinchin Street Torso.

Yes, one torso. Trow discusses why he thinks the 87-89 cases are connected.

Moreover, you seek to link the Torso murders with the C5 murders which is tenuous at best. However, let's assume you're correct. As has already been pointed out to you the first Torso murder took place in 1873- you should know this as you've got Trow's book!- which clearly fatally undermines Chapman's candidacy.

It depends. If you link the 73 cases with 87-89 or not. Trow also explains how body parts in the river is nothing new. What is new about the 87-89 cases is how they appeared in the way they where dumped.

So let's summarize why you think Chapman is such a good candidate. Firstly, you seem to believe that you've uncovered the first example in recorded criminological history of a violent sex murderer transforming himself into a slow poisoner, even though the personalities of the respective types of killer, and their motivations, are radically different.

Covered this in #2,#3

#2. Chapman was still a young man obviously capable of serial killing. Lust murderers can and do pause, even for long periods of time, especially due to family matters.

#3. A lack of evidence for lust killers who also poisoned may be absent due to the fact that even by the late 19th century poisoning can be detected and quickly.

Also we know MOs and signatures can change.

Secondly, you seem to believe that Chapman acquired significant anatomical knowledge and surgical skill after reading a few textbooks!

There is no way you can get significant anatomical knowledge from reading Aristotle's book linked above. My point is, one of the few books recovered from him was one full of illustrations of women's torso's (head, arms, legs gone) with their abdomens opened up.

Thirdly, you seem to believe that he started serial killing as the sophisticated Thames Torso murderer in 1873, the date of the first Torso Murder, when he was only 8 years old and living in Poland!

Unbelievable!

Hopefully that's sorted.

Why did he want to hide by not admitting to be Klosowski?

[HelenaWojtczak]

what are the chances of another serial killer living/working in Whitechapel

THAT, my friend, is THE intriguing question that hangs over Chapman.

evidence for him being at George's yard if not during Tabram's murder, at least a few years later

Why do you find it suspicious that someone lived in a densely overcrowded neighbourhood a few years after a murder was committed there? My neighbour murdered someone whilst I was actually living next door to him, but that doesn't mean I am implicated.

who upon arrest for suspicion of poisoning his 'girlfriend', having in his house some medical books, one of which is an illustrated text of women torsos with open abdomens?

This is again silly. He had a load of medical books; it's inevitable that some are going to show people's insides. I've owned such books in the past (the evidence is mounting for me being a murderer now!)

What you are proposing is that Chapman just happened to have these

Nobody has ever argued that Chapman had no interest in medical matters: he trained for nearly five years as a feldsher, he needed anatomical knowledge ~ especially of obstetrics as they acted as midwives.

being in George's yard means little because we can reject the witness who puts him there and Chapman's motive was munchausen by proxy syndrome and did not financially gain by poisoning his gfs.

Yes.

Is he really a weak candidate for JtR?

At the end of the day, your first point stands: he WAS living in the East End throughout the murders, and the chances of two serial killers .... etc. However, never ever forget that the EE was extremely densely overcrowded, and so maybe its not such an "amazing coincidence" that two serial killers lived there ~ one operating at the time and one 15 years later.

Chapman must have been aware of Jack the Ripper; maybe Jack showed him how easy it was to get away with multiple murder. That might have influenced him.

But, never forget, also, it's never been proved that Jack the Ripper was a serial killer. "He" could have been five or more different murderers. Also, if the torso killer was someone different, we are looking at THREE serial killers.

Helena

[GUT]

Unbelievable!

But typical of the way that some seem to go about things.

[John G]

It's just the more things are shown to point away from him, the more things turn up that point to him.

On this board for example, the Whitechapel murders include the Torso murders. Now what are the chances of another serial killer living/working in Whitechapel with evidence for him being at George's yard if not during Tabram's murder, at least a few years later, who upon arrest for suspicion of poisoning his 'girlfriend', having in his house some medical books, one of which is an illustrated text of women torsos with open abdomens?

The other a collection of 5 medical volumes, the last being a book specifically about the biology women's reproduction systems and related medical knowledge?

What you are proposing is that Chapman just happened to have these, they aren't related to our interests on this board, that being in George's yard means little because we can reject the witness who puts him there and Chapman's motive was munchausen by proxy syndrome and did not financially gain by poisoning his gfs.

Is he really a weak candidate for JtR?

As Helena has already noted this is all starting to get a bit silly. It appears that you have elected to abandon any pretence of a science based approach in favour of...well, I'm really not sure anymore!

I mean, even your interpretations of the factual evidence is seriously flawed. You say that the "Whitechapel murders include the Torso murders". However, only one Torso victim was found in Whitechapel- The Pinchin Street Torso.

Moreover, you seek to link the Torso murders with the C5 murders which is tenuous at best. However, let's assume you're correct. As has already been pointed out to you the first Torso murder took place in 1873- you should know this as you've got Trow's book!- which clearly fatally undermines Chapman's candidacy.

So let's summarize why you think Chapman is such a good candidate. Firstly, you seem to believe that you've uncovered the first example in recorded criminological history of a violent sex murderer transforming himself into a slow poisoner, even though the personalities of the respective types of killer, and their motivations, are radically different.

Secondly, you seem to believe that Chapman acquired significant anatomical knowledge and surgical skill after reading a few textbooks!

Thirdly, you seem to believe that he started serial killing as the sophisticated Thames Torso murderer in 1873, the date of the first Torso Murder, when he was only 8 years old and living in Poland!

Unbelievable!