Any connection between Chapman and Kosminski?

[JTRSickert]

Hello everyone. I don't know if this topic has been brought up before on the forums, but I thought I should bring it up since it just occured to me. Since George Chapman's real name was Severin Klosowski, he was one of many Polish immigrants who were residing in Whitechapel in 1888. Although he himself was not Jewish, it stands to reason that he would have encountered many Polish Jews while residing in the area, especially since he worked in a barbershop that catered to many Poles in the area. That being said, does anyone think that he might have crossed paths at some point with Kosminski or maybe even the individual known as "David Cohen?" One interesting thing to remember is that Kosminski is listed as also working in a barbershop in the East End as well (though I wouldn't be surprised if this was a common occupation for Polish immigrants at the time). So, anyone think they may have met each other? or, does anyone see any think there are any commonalities between these 2 suspects? If they did, in fact, cross paths at some point, it may not have any relevance towards the JTR case, but it would be interesting to note, wouldn't it?

[Adam Went]

I don't recall hearing anything about them knowingly crossing each others paths, but I guess it's possible since they were in the same area at the same time. There was a huge population of Jewish immigrants though so it hardly would have been anything noteworthy if they had done so. Plus, after the murders, by the time Chapman went off to the US and came back again, Kosminski was locked up, so there's really only the window around the time of the WM for them to have bumped into one another....

Interesting question though JT.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi JTRS!
I dont think there has ever been any connection made between the two.Klosowski arrived on his own from Warsaw in 1887/8 and immediately got down to work as a barber.Kosminski may have arrived as early as 1881 with some members of his family ---and did very little work---almost nothing is known about his early hairdressing---if he ever did any.
I have sometimes wondered if Anderson was a bit muddled about him but I dont think so because he is very clear that Kosminski ended up in the loony bin whereas Klosowski ended up on the gallows!
Best
Norma

[Steven Russell]

Hello all.
Some time ago I tentatively suggested that Abberline might have confused details of the two men as they were both called K-----ski, both barbers, and of similar ages. This, I thought, might help to explain his remarks to the press following Chapman / Klosowski's arrest. This suggestion - perhaps rightly - was not met with much enthusiasm.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[robhouse]

Aaron Kozminski and Severin Klosowski grew up only about 10 miles from each other...

Klosowski in the village of Nagorna just outside Kolo...

Kozminski in Klodawa, just 10 miles east of there.

see below:

[Chris]

Aaron Kozminski and Severin Klosowski grew up only about 10 miles from each other...

Klosowski in the village of Nagorna just outside Kolo...

Kozminski in Klodawa, just 10 miles east of there.

And Severin Klosowski even lived in Greenfield Street, where it seems Aaron Kozminski must have lived at one time or another.

[robhouse]

Hi Chris,

When did Klosowski live there? Do we know?

Rob

[Chris]

When did Klosowski live there? Do we know?

I think in or around 1890. I don't know whether it can be pinned down any more accurately.

[JTRSickert]

This is fascinating guys. Rob, thats interesting info. you posted. Maybe there is more out there between the 2 of them.

[Adam Went]

Steven, your idea is worthy of some consideration, especially if we consider that 15 years had elapsed between the JTR murders and Abberline's comments - and also, although many years later, Inspector Neil in his memoirs referred to Klosowski as Kloskovski....names do get muddled after the passage of time. As a Klosowski-ite, i'm leaning more towards Abberline having the right name, but it might be worthy of further thought.

As for Greenfield Street, Chris has it right at around 1890. Klosowski and Lucy Baderski left for the USA not too long after that.

Cheers,
Adam.

[JTRSickert]

Hey guys,

Maybe Chapman committed the crimes but set up Kosminski as the patsy!

I know, ridiculous. But hey, there's another conspiracy theory for us to toss around.

[HelenaWojtczak]

I found Kolo on the map, but no village called Nagorna. There is however an exceptionally long street called Nagorna. Perhaps in 1865 it was a village, then as the area became built up and Kolo became a bigger town it was absorbed into it, with just the street name remaining.

[Chris]

I found Kolo on the map, but no village called Nagorna. There is however an exceptionally long street called Nagorna. Perhaps in 1865 it was a village, then as the area became built up and Kolo became a bigger town it was absorbed into it, with just the street name remaining.

Gareth Williams (aka Sam Flynn) worked out where Nagorna used to be a few years ago. You can find some maps here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3045

[Phil H]

I don't know how how familiar middle class Victorian gentlemen were with eastern European names - i.e. if they heard a name would they have any idea of how to spell it?

Thus I too am attracted to the idea of a mix-up of names: especially in regard to Abberline (who might have heard Klosowski and remembered Kosminski). But I don't think one could ever prove that.

I don't think a mix-up between the "two Ks" would change our view of Anderson or Swanson, however.

n a final point did not one previous book (McCormick?) argue that his suspect and Klosowski/Chapman did some sort of double-act - but his other half was called Pedachenko in McCormick, as I recall.

Are we on the verge, in this thread, of re-inventing a Klosowski/Kosminski association that might actually lead to McCormick being reassessed (something that makes my eyes boggle!).

Phil

[HelenaWojtczak]

Gareth Williams (aka Sam Flynn) worked out where Nagorna used to be a few years ago. You can find some maps here:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3045

Thank you SO much for this link! Brilliant maps, really useful.