Interesting article on George

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
Many thanks for digging out the reference to the Directory.It was especially gratifying seeing such a contemporary reference to people we have become so familiar with on the case like Monro and Warren!
Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

may have enjoyed his days watching the senior surgeon back home opening up bodies in the operating theatre.

He may not ever have been in an operating theatre, Nats. The "senior surgeon" to whom he was apprenticed (as a very young teenager) was little more than a village doctor, treating a small-town population of perhaps 2,000 Jews. Klosowski's one formal course of training, at the Praga Hospital, lasted only a few months, and could only have been of the most basic kind imaginable. Slapping poultices on boils, twisting the odd tourniquet, witnessing one or two amputations, pulling teeth, mole-cutting and a bit of midwifery, perhaps. I can imagine that he'd plenty of experience of haircuts and beard trims, but little exposure to the work of a "surgeon" as we understand it.

[Natalie Severn]

Well thats certainly not what Sugden"s research pointed towards.Sugden points out he was born in a village and at the age of 15---which was not particularly young in those days to be apprenticed since in the UK ,the school leaving age was 12 years----[from the days of the 1870 Education Act] .Sugden comments that in 1880 [ie at age 15] his parents apprenticed him to Rappaport, Senior Surgeon at Svolen,where for the next 5 years---ie until he was aged 20----he faithfully served his apprenticeship [1885]and he went to Warsaw armed with a certificate signed by Rappaport to the effect that he was "of exemplary conduct and STUDIED WITH ZEAL THE SCIENCE OF SURGERY".
However you are correct,Sam,in that it appears that it wasnt until he reached Warsaw that he attended a practical course in surgery for himself---though I certainly reckon like Sugden advises,that Rappaport,with the title of senior surgeon,would have practised amputation and other surgery.
The Praga Hospital was in Warsaw----the capital city of Poland.So at this practical course at a City hospital he must have seen and probably practised for himself, using a post mortem knife,since such practice was one of the very first ways in which a student of surgery began to learn anatomy.
Maybe it was at this "practical surgery course" that he developed a predilection for using a "knife"----after which he may have yearned to set to work with a vengeance ,the opportunity only properly arising when he arrived in Cable Street with his own barber"s /haircutting shop with Pinchin Street and Berner Street just round the corner and a host of "unfortunates" across Whitechapel ?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nats,

Well thats certainly not what Sugden"s research pointed towards.Sugden points out he was born in a village

Sugden gets the name of the village wrong - to be fair, he's only going by HL Adam's book and/or the trial transcripts, where the same error is made. As to the rest - 15 is far too young to be entrusted with proper surgery, no matter what century or country one might have lived in, and Klosowski's certificates specifically mention only the use of leeches and the archaic technique of "cupping".

His apprenticeship was served with Moshko (Moses) Rappaport, who was a village surgeon in Zwoleń - which had a total population of around 6,000 and a Jewish population of around 2,000 at that time. Unless there was a major war, or the plague was rife in south-eastern Poland at that time, I doubt that our pimply apprentice would have seen much surgical "action" in Zwoleń at all. Chances are, he didn't get much of an opportunity to leech and cup too many people either. In parallel with his tenure at Rappaport's, Klosowski also assisted at a nearby village surgery in a place called (something like) "Tymenitsa" at the same time - I've not yet found out where that was.

After this, he enrols for a four month course in "practical surgery" in the Praga. There's not much one can learn about anything in four months, still less anything like even the most basic "surgical" techniques that the likes of William Gull or a Bagster Phillips would have learned - and then only after several years at the best teaching hospitals in England.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Sam.Among the other subjects that have interested me over the years was the life of the poet John Keats,who initially trained as a surgeon.So it may have been in the Gittings biography of Keats that the method of training as a surgeon here,in the UK, at Guy"s hospital circa 1818 was described but the impression I had was that the practical course here,at that time,followed a similar five year apprenticeship as Chapman appears to have had in Poland and it consisted mainly,as a student in Keats"s case, of "opening up" corpses .[It was only when he had to assist at amputations that he decided the job of surgeon wasnt going to be for him........!
Anyway, you are not suggesting are you, that , in a village of some 6,000 people, there would not have been births, deaths and in certain of those deaths ,post mortems? So who else in such a town or village ,would have been in attendance other than the senior surgeon or a surgeon and surely they would have had with them on many occasions an apprentice such as Chapman was?

[Sam Flynn]

Anyway, you are not suggesting are you, that , in a village of some 6,000 people, there would not have been births, deaths and in certain of those deaths ,post mortems?

Not at all, Nats: just not that many, and - amongst the smaller Jewish population - fewer still. Furthermore, Rappaport is unlikely to have been the only Jewish doctor in town, so the proportion of post-mortems he might have attended to would have been still fewer. Of this remainder, quite how many would have been "demonstrated" to a teenage boy, whose certificated experience specified only leeching and cupping, is rather dubious.

Add to this the possibility that Rappaport might not have performed any post-mortems - whether for legal, religious or other reasons - during the period the lad was with him, and we're left with a somewhat speculative argument that Klosowski was exposed to any such procedures at all.

[Sam Flynn]

Another missing piece of the jigsaw...

Klosowski also assisted at a nearby village surgery in a place called (something like) "Tymenitsa" at the same time - I've not yet found out where that was.

As you were - I've now found "Tymenitsa" (as written in the trial transcript) was actually "Tymienica Stara" - or "Old Tymienica". It's actually pronounced "Tim-yen-its-ka", so the Old Bailey scribe didn't do a bad job of transliterating it after all. Tymienica Stara is about 8 miles just east of due south from Zwoleń.

I found a photograph of some houses in the village, which is rather bijou - the village, I mean, not the houses:



...not far from here, the young Klosowski would lance people's boils, and squeeze his own pimples.

[Natalie Severn]

Not at all, Nats: just not that many, and - amongst the smaller Jewish population - fewer still. Furthermore, Rappaport is unlikely to have been the only Jewish doctor in town, so the proportion of post-mortems he might have attended to would have been still fewer. Of this remainder, quite how many would have been "demonstrated" to a teenage boy, whose certificated experience specified only leeching and cupping, is rather dubious.

Add to this the possibility that Rappaport might not have performed any post-mortems - whether for legal, religious or other reasons - during the period the lad was with him, and we're left with a somewhat speculative argument that Klosowski was exposed to any such procedures at all.

Hi Sam,
Thanks for the photos.
Some of this is repeated on the other thread but I think it important to set the record straight about the training Chapman got because its all to easy to poke fun at "foreigners" ,and by stereotyping them diminishing what they actually may have achieved .Although you may be correct about what his certificate for the five year apprenticeship to Rappaport entitled him,it has been helpful looking at parallel courses in England ,earlier in that century, via Robert Gittings biography of the poet Keats,who actually was apprenticed to a village doctor in order to become a surgeon in much the same way as Chapman was and which he did at exactly the same age as George Chapman-15 years[Keatswas 14 years and ten months when he began his apprecticeship.Such apprenticeships were by no means easy to come by,costly and there was much competition to gain a place in a local doctor"s surgery attached to the house, which was where the apprenticeships took place .Parents or guardians had to fork out £210 as an initial sum in Keats"s day[1810]---some £2,000 by todays money,and serving such an apprenticeship included anatomy as well as leeching, assisting and the like.After the five years,just as in Chapman"s case, they then had to undertake a short course in a city or big town hospital which qualified them either as a licenced Apothecary or to progress further in surgery and become a member of the Royal College of Surgeons.Chapman went on from Rappaport to do "practical work" - a short course in a hospital-this would have almost certainly included assisting at post mortems in a mortuary----it did here,and being present at amputations,births and minor surgery---the exact situation in surgery training which had prevailed here up to at least the mid 19th century.Chapman did this in the Capital,Warsaw.Warsaw was an elegant city at that time with sophisticated and baroque architecture,theatre and a long history of famous musicians,such as Chopin who was born there.
Sugden states in his book that there are still copies of the fees Chapman paid for that particular hospital course before he set off for England in 1887----where his qualifications were probably not recognised and he therefore had to work as a barber.

[Sam Flynn]

Sugden states in his book that there are still copies of the fees Chapman paid for that particular hospital course before he set off for England in 1887----where his qualifications were probably not recognised and he therefore had to work as a barber.

I think he was a trained barber in Poland, which is why he became a barber in London and elsewhere. It's inconceivable that he'd have learned "proper" surgery on the back of a teenage apprenticeship in a small town, and a four month course at a hospital. Why, Klosowski even described himself to his sister-in-law as a "feldscher", not as a doctor or surgeon. That said, his compatriot Wolff Levissohn even cast doubt upon that, claiming that Klosowski was too young to have qualified as a feldscher before leaving Poland.

My great-grandfather was a distinguished St John's Ambulance member - he served with them for 72 years! - and he'd learned how to dress and suture wounds, apply tourniquets, splints, etc. He was known in the village as "Doctor John", although he wasn't a "proper" doctor, and would perform such minor procedures for his neighbours on occasion. He would also make up basic medicines, like cough-mixtures, liniments, etc., out of herbs and various (legal) substances. Come to think of it, he used to cut peoples' hair too, but that's possibly coincidental.

Now, there's no disgrace in that - I'm proud of what "Dr John" achieved - on the contrary, he was trained, he provided a useful service and was "zealous" in what he did. But he was no surgeon - a British equivalent of a "feldscher" would be nearer the mark.

[Roy Corduroy]

Computerized aging

[protohistorian]

failure in life

I think he was a trained barber in Poland, which is why he became a barber in London and elsewhere. It's inconceivable that he'd have learned "proper" surgery on the back of a teenage apprenticeship in a small town, and a four month course at a hospital. Why, Klosowski even described himself to his sister-in-law as a "feldscher", not as a doctor or surgeon. That said, his compatriot Wolff Levissohn even cast doubt upon that, claiming that Klosowski was too young to have qualified as a feldscher before leaving Poland.

My great-grandfather was a distinguished St John's Ambulance member - he served with them for 72 years! - and he'd learned how to dress and suture wounds, apply tourniquets, splints, etc. He was known in the village as "Doctor John", although he wasn't a "proper" doctor, and would perform such minor procedures for his neighbours on occasion. He would also make up basic medicines, like cough-mixtures, liniments, etc., out of herbs and various (legal) substances. Come to think of it, he used to cut peoples' hair too, but that's possibly coincidental.

Now, there's no disgrace in that - I'm proud of what "Dr John" achieved - on the contrary, he was trained, he provided a useful service and was "zealous" in what he did. But he was no surgeon - a British equivalent of a "feldscher" would be nearer the mark.

Wouldn't being a medic sound just like being the king to someone who had to leave his former circumstances because of failure. That type of person might even later in life marriages that end in disaster. Now why does that sound familiar? Hmmmmm?

[protohistorian]

and thats expains why Chapmn was later a barber

He may not ever have been in an operating theatre, Nats. The "senior surgeon" to whom he was apprenticed (as a very young teenager) was little more than a village doctor, treating a small-town population of perhaps 2,000 Jews. Klosowski's one formal course of training, at the Praga Hospital, lasted only a few months, and could only have been of the most basic kind imaginable. Slapping poultices on boils, twisting the odd tourniquet, witnessing one or two amputations, pulling teeth, mole-cutting and a bit of midwifery, perhaps. I can imagine that he'd plenty of experience of haircuts and beard trims, but little exposure to the work of a "surgeon" as we understand it.

Failure is a known presipitator in disorganised serials. Hey, wait a minute...is this a trick or just a really good explanation of modern understandings fit the behavior of known serials? Good one guys!

[Natalie Severn]

I think he was a trained barber in Poland, which is why he became a barber in London and elsewhere. It's inconceivable that he'd have learned "proper" surgery on the back of a teenage apprenticeship in a small town, and a four month course at a hospital. Why, Klosowski even described himself to his sister-in-law as a "feldscher", not as a doctor or surgeon. That said, his compatriot Wolff Levissohn even cast doubt upon that, claiming that Klosowski was too young to have qualified as a feldscher before leaving Poland.

My great-grandfather was a distinguished St John's Ambulance member - he served with them for 72 years! - and he'd learned how to dress and suture wounds, apply tourniquets, splints, etc. He was known in the village as "Doctor John", although he wasn't a "proper" doctor, and would perform such minor procedures for his neighbours on occasion. He would also make up basic medicines, like cough-mixtures, liniments, etc., out of herbs and various (legal) substances. Come to think of it, he used to cut peoples' hair too, but that's possibly coincidental.

Now, there's no disgrace in that - I'm proud of what "Dr John" achieved - on the contrary, he was trained, he provided a useful service and was "zealous" in what he did. But he was no surgeon - a British equivalent of a "feldscher" would be nearer the mark.

But Sam,you contradict the researched work of the historian,Philip Sugden,who actually did a lot of very careful research into this and you make those contradictions on a sort of shot in the dark- ie you use your own assumption about the state of play of Polish doctors and training and the Klosowski household and their finances---[finances which we none of us know anything about].You state his father was "only a carpenter".So was Grinling Gibbons a carpenter----but he was actually a hugely rich carpenter !Some carpenters were rich, some poor ,some moderately off.Some had their own family businesses and this was so throughout Europe.We just dont know how well off they were.
Regarding the state of scientific and medical advancement in Poland.Poland produced Marie Curie,a woman scientist of genius whose research into radiation led to huge advances in medicine throughout the whole of Europe so I cant accept your claim that Polish medical establishments were backward.Klosowski followed up his five year apprenticeship in "the science of surgery" with a practical course working in a Warsaw hospital----the receipts for the fees of which have apparently been seen by Philip Sugden.

[Natalie Severn]

Failure is a known presipitator in disorganised serials. Hey, wait a minute...is this a trick or just a really good explanation of modern understandings fit the behavior of known serials? Good one guys!

hang on-lets stick to facts rather than fantasy---Philip Sugden"s research revealed he passed his five year apprenticeship in an exemplary way and went on to work as an "assistant surgeon or feldscher for a futher two years after which he took a course in practical surgery---at Praga Hospital in Warsaw.

[Sam Flynn]

But Sam,you contradict the researched work of the historian,Philip Sugden,who actually did a lot of very careful research into this.

I've done a fair bit of research into Klosowski myself, Nats. What I say doesn't contradict, but adds a little more background and perspective to Klosowski's story.

you make those contradictions on a sort of shot in the dark- ie you use your own assumption about the state of play of Polish doctors and training and the Klosowski household and their finances

What "shot in the dark"? I found Klosowski's birthplace - it was a tiny little village outside Kolo, where Severin's dad was a carpenter. A carpenter in a tiny little village doesn't sound like the sort of person who could afford the equivalent of a thousand-pound apprenticeship to me.

Likewise Moshko Rappaport - who was, on face value, a "senior surgeon", but that's without even considering what sort of town Zvolen was. It was a tiny little town. Likewise Tymienica - an even smaller village. "Senior surgeon in Zwolen" sounds impressive, until you dig a little further: my own GP - and possibly yours - has a bigger roll of patients.