The date of Klosowski's arrival in the US in 1891

[Chris Scott]

The "Suspects" section on Chapman/Klosowski includes this section:
Unfortunately for Klosowski, he was still legally married to his first wife, whom he had left back in Poland. She, however, seemed to have gotten wind of her husband's infidelity and moved to London in an attempt to oust Baderski. The two women appear to have cohabited for a time, until Klosowski's legal wife finally gave up and left, possibly because of the birth of her husband's and Baderksi's son in September of 1890. They moved around quite a bit, living in Cable Street, Commercial Street and Greenfield Street, respectively, until they finally emigrated to New Jersey later that year.

The exact date of their emigration is not known for sure, but the last occurence of the name in any records were in the national census of 1891, which listed them as living at 2 Tewkesbury Buildings, Whitechapel. This survey was taken in early April of that year.

The date of Klosowski's arrival in America that year is now known - I thought I'd seen it on Casebook before but cannot now find it so I am posting it here so that the info is definitely on the site.
Here is the arrival record:
First name: SEVERIN
Last name: KLASOWSKY
Occupation: BARBER
Age: 27
Sex: MALE
Ship: Friesland
Arrived: 28 July 1891
Country: GERMANY
Port of Departure: ANTWERP
City of Village of Destination: NEW YORK
Paid by: SELF

His wife's record gives her age as 20, and her first name as "ANY"

[Chris Scott]

A history of the Friesland and images of the ship can be found at:

http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=fries

Here are the arrival records for Klosowski and Lucy:

[Chris]

The date of Klosowski's arrival in America that year is now known - I thought I'd seen it on Casebook before but cannot now find it so I am posting it here so that the info is definitely on the site.

Yes - the thread discussing this (in September 2006) was lost in the last crash. It was R. J. Palmer who found this previously.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Chris for posting all that which is so clear to read.Yes Roger Palmer did indeed find this particular couple crossing to New York but he remained a little uncertain about whether he was sure it was definitely the same couple. However it certainly looks likely to have been Lucy or "Lousie" Baderski and Severin.
They were though legally married and it would appear that the sources were wrong when they stated he had been married before.Reading through source material chronologically ,it seems the " menage a trois" he created was between Lucy Klosowski nee Baderski,who he married in 1889 and Annie Chapman who he took up with towards the end of 1893 when he had moved to Tottenham.He had begun living with her and they passed themselves off as Mr and Mrs Klosowski.She told the 1903 court that she had lived with him for a year [Nov.1893-Nov 1894] and had become pregnant.At some point Lucy Baderski "reappeared" and all three lived in the same house for some weeks ,after which they had a big fight and Annie moved out before their baby was born. When Annie went over to tell him she was having money difficulties because of the expected baby he apparently showed no interest whatever.
Best,
Norma

[Dr. John Watson]

If anyone's interested, here is the actual Friesland passenger list. With respect to the wife's name, it's possible the ships officer who prepared the list misunderstood and wrote "Any" instead of "Annie."

[Cobblestones]

I have read so many contradictory comments on whether George Chapman was in fact in America at the time another woman was killed in a similar fashion as to what happened in London.

Was he in America at that time or not?.

Can anyone clear this up for me?.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

The simple answer would be no, he was not.

It is unclear exactly when Klosowski arrived in North America. The above information shows that a "Severin Klasowsky" arrived in New York in July of 1891. However it's not clear if this is the murderer Severin Klosowski or not (some of the details don't fit with Klosowski/Chapman). Another source, Klosowski's sister-in-law, stated that the couple left London around Whitsuntide, 1891, or around the 17th of May, 1891.

Since the ripper-like murder of Carrie Brown in New York occurred on the 24th of April, 1891, the above two sources suggest that Klosowski was still in London when Brown was murdered.

Wolf.

[Uncle Jack]

Klosowski wasn't 27 in 1891 as far as I know. Or could he maybe have gone to America in April, spend a month or so there before heading to Germany and then back to America in July 1891. Anything is possible, I suppose.

[Natalie Severn]

The simple answer would be no, he was not.

It is unclear exactly when Klosowski arrived in North America. The above information shows that a "Severin Klasowsky" arrived in New York in July of 1891. However it's not clear if this is the murderer Severin Klosowski or not (some of the details don't fit with Klosowski/Chapman). Another source, Klosowski's sister-in-law, stated that the couple left London around Whitsuntide, 1891, or around the 17th of May, 1891.

Since the ripper-like murder of Carrie Brown in New York occurred on the 24th of April, 1891, the above two sources suggest that Klosowski was still in London when Brown was murdered.

Wolf.

Here is an extract from the trial of Severin Klosowski /George Chapman.It refers to the testimony of Mrs Stanislaus Rauch,Lucy Baderski"s sister and Klosowski"s sister-in-law:

Mrs. Stanislaus Rauch, examined---I am the wife of William Rauch, of 292 Burdett Road, and 1 am the msnt of the last witness. I have a sister named Lucy Baderski. I last saw her about four weeks ago. She left German Poland before I did. I only came over about three years ago, and at that time my sister was married. Her married name was Lucy Klosowski.
I met her husband in a public-house in Whitechapel Road. I think he is the accused. When I came to London my sister was living with him in Greenfield Street, and I used to go and see them there. When their first baby was born I saw the accused washing it just like a nurse. He said he had been a " feldscher " at the Hospital of the Infant Jesus at Praga, near Warsaw. I remember him and my sister going to America. She came back alone in February, 1891. Another child was born on I2th May. When the child was about a fortnight old the accused came back from America, and I then left my sister, as they were going to. live together. I left them together in the same lodgings. That was the last I saw of him.
Cross-examined—Were you shown a photograph before you went to the Court?—Yes, by Mr. Godley. I had seen another one before I came to London thirteen years ago which had been sent to my father.
Had you seen the accused very often before he went to America ?—Yes. I came over here in August, and they went to America about the following Whitsuntide
When you went to pick the accused out were you quite sure of him?—I was not quite sure of him at first, but afterwards I was quite sure. There was no other man like him among them.
Re-examined—How many men were there present?—There were about twenty men altogether.
How many photographs did you see of the accused?—Two


The Trial of George Chapman took place in March 1903.Although Mrs Stanislaus Rauch first says she came "three" years ago ,this is clearly a typing error because she later says she came 13 years ago-in August. Which would have been August 1890 presumably.By then her sister would have been married to Klosowski some 10 months.[They married in October 1889 and both lived in Cable Street where Klosowski had been living since the previous December 1888-possible a little longer ].
So using Mrs Rauch"s dates of recollection,the Klosowski"s left for America some time in May 1890 and Lucy returned in February 1891 .

In actual fact it can be seen that Mrs Stanilaus Rauch didn"t actually state the year viz 1890 but she did when she recollected their return from the States: Lucy returned February 1891 she states and Severin returned about two weeks after the baby was born in May 1891-ie around theend of may or the beginning of June 1891.
However, against this we have the census returns "apparently" showing he was still in London in early April 1891.Or did they just "keep on the flat" in Tewksbury Blds. near the White Hart Pub?
Either the census returns or Mrs Rauch are inaccurate about these dates-one or the other. Mrs Rauch"s memory of the exact dates the Klosowskis left for America may be wrong----if so then how can we be sure she remembers Whitsuntide [end of May] as being when they set sail?
On the other hand it should be quite easy to get these dates to tally if someone can check out the date that Lucy and Severin Klosowski"s child was born---as that is pretty firmly planted in Mrs Rauch"s memory of events as 12th May 1891.If that is accurate then Klosowski was in America during the whole of April 1891.

[Natalie Severn]

Does anybody know whether a death certificate exists for Severin and Lucy Klosowski"s son? If his death was in London in March 1891, as has been reported, then this puts him definitely still in London, at 2 Tewksbury Buildings as stated in the 1891 early April census record.It would also be helpful if we could trace a birth certificate for this child.
I ofcourse accept that Lucy"s sister,Mrs Stanislaus Rauch may have got her dates muddled or that the dates she is recorded as having given in court may have been wrongly reported and/or recorded. There is definitely an inconsistency though in the record she is said to have given of the birth date of her niece,ie Severin and Lucy"s daughter,in May 1891 which followed the return of Lucy from America, which according to this was in February 1891.
What we really need is a birth and death certificate for their first born and a birth certificate for their daughter. We may then be able to unravel the puzzling information over the dates the couple were in America.
Norma

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

“Buried in the transcripts of Chapman’s trial is the witness statement of Mrs. Stanislaus Rauch, nee Baderski. Mrs. Rauch was the sister of Lucy Baderski, Klosowski’s wife at the time of the move to New Jersey. She had given evidence at the Police Court Proceedings on 7th of January, 1903 and would later take the witness stand on the first day of Chapman’s trial.
It is from Mrs. Rauch’s testimony that we have obtained the information that Chapman and his wife left for America in 1890, a fact that is obviously wrong based on the information provided by the 1891 census. So Mrs. Rauch was wrong on this point but does this mean that we should throw out all of her testimony? If it could be proved that she intentionally mislead the court or was lying or covering up for Chapman for some reason then perhaps her information should be disregard but there is absolutely no evidence of this and it is highly improbable that she did so.
It seems evident that Mrs. Rauch merely had a little trouble with remembering the exact year, much like another witness at the trial Wolf Levisohn, which is perhaps understandable after the passage of thirteen years. The information that she has provided appears to be correct but she has simply pushed back the year when these events took place. For example when she stated at the Police Court Proceedings that she had arrived “from German Poland in August 1889", it was actually a year later, 1890 (As evidenced by the information that when she arrived in London her sister and Chapman were already married. As the marriage took place on 29 October, 1889, she must have arrived in August of 1890. She also stated in 1903 she had been living in Britain for thirteen years which would also seem to indicate the year 1890). and when she stated at the trial that “I remember him and my sister going to America. She came back alone in February, 1891,” we know that the month is correct but that it was actually a year later, 1892. This mistake was consistent throughout her testimony.
Under cross examination by Chapman’s lawyers, Mrs. Rauch was asked: “Had you seen the accused very often before he went to America?” To which Mrs. Rauch replied: “Yes. I came over here in August, and they went to America about the following Whitsuntide.” As Mrs. Rauch had arrived in London in August of 1890 then “the following Whitsuntide” would have fallen in 1891, the year we know that Chapman and his wife did indeed leave for America.
The religious observance of Whitsun, or Pentecost, is held seven Sundays after Easter in mid Spring. Whitsuntide, also known as Whitsun week, is comprised of Whitsun Sunday and the following week ending on the next Sunday. Mrs. Rauch’s evidence can be taken to mean that Chapman and his wife left London for America sometime shortly before or after Whitsun in the year 1891. In that year Whitsun fell on the 17th of May. Therefore, according to his sister-in-law, Severin Klosowski left London around the week of the 17th to the 24th of May, 1891 and was thus still in London some three weeks to a month after the murder of Carrie Brown and wouldn’t even arrive in New York City until either very late May or early to mid June.”
The New York Affair part 3 (unedited version), Ripper Notes #19, July, 2004.

Mrs. Rauch arrived in London in August, 1890; According to her Klosowski and his wife left London around mid-May, 1891 and Lucy arrived back in London in February, 1892 shortly followed by her husband.

Wolf.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Wolf,


Meanwhile Chris Scott kindly sent me some detailed information which included Lucy Klosowski"s date of return from New York as well as the date of arrival viz:Lucy's return to UK

Name: Lucy Klosowska

Birth Date: abt 1871

Age: 21

Port of Departure: New York, New York, United States

Arrival Date: 11 Jan 1892

Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England

Ship Name: City of Berlin

On the ship's manifest she is listed as a servant.

Birth of daughter:

Name: Cecilia Klosowski

Year of Registration: 1892


Yes, Lucy"s sister, Mrs Stanilaus Rauch clearly made a mistake over the year of Lucy"s departure from America.

[Natalie Severn]

Chris Scott has since found a year of birth and a name for Severin Klosowski"s infant son:

re The birth of Klosowski's son
Name: Wladyslaw Klosowski
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Whitechapel
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c

Many Thanks for this information Chris,
Norma

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

The son was born on the 6th of September, 1890 and died on the 3rd of March, 1891.

Wolf.