documents at arrest

[protohistorian]

pages from The Trial of George Chapman, edited by H.L. Adam Respectfully Dave

[adamkle]

One question. These documents, do they exist in original versions? I mean Russian/Polish etc. Were their copies published anywhere or they simply disappeared?

[protohistorian]

One question. These documents, do they exist in original versions? I mean Russian/Polish etc. Were their copies published anywhere or they simply disappeared?

I believe they are in the national archives of England. The originals were states evidence in Chapmans prosecution.

[Natalie Severn]

Good to see you posting on Chapman again,Dave.I havent lost interest myself----just enjoying the Summer.Ghastly chap this Chapman though,no question!

[adamkle]

Well, national archives of England are out of my reach right now... But maybe there are copies of these original documents in any books abut JTR or SK? I will appreciate any suggestions.

[Sam Flynn]

Well, national archives of England are out of my reach right now... But maybe there are copies of these original documents in any books abut JTR or SK? I will appreciate any suggestions.

When I spoke to the splendid R Michael Gordon on one of the Podcasts, he was interested to know that I'd tried getting hold of the originals (or images thereof) from the National Archives. In fact, I don't think he knew that these files existed. Given that Gordon is someone who has written most extensively - almost exclusively - about Klosowski, it's unlikely that anyone else would have seen fit to publish the material in a book. I certainly know of no major source of Klosowski-related material in popular literature that would give us any deeper insight into his story than is known already.

Incidentally, the National Archives quoted me a sum well over Ł500 when I applied to obtain copies of the files. I'm keen, but not that keen

[adamkle]

Thank you for information!

In my opinion these translations provoke many questions. Let's see f.e. extract (1):
- Such names as "Colimowski" and "Zyanski" don't exist in Polish language (I'm Polish so I' m well oriented ).
- "Ludwig Zyanski" is mentioned as godfather of SK. "Ludwig" is "Ludwik" (Louis). Name "Zyanski" doesn't exist. But it could be "Zywanski".
- "Ludwika Zywanski" is mentioned as a witness. "Ludwika" is "Louisa".
- So we have Ludwik & Ludwika Zywanski. Are they family? Or... maybe there is a mistake in translation? Maybe this is the same person?
It's just a detail but for me there are many such linguistic enigmas (including names and places) in these translated documents...

We're talking about documents, so it might interest you what Polish National Archives in Warsaw could say about SK. I asked them in 2008 about any records of SK. Unfortunately many archives vanished during WW2. Warsaw was almost completely destroyed by Germans, so... Well, this is what National Archives answered:
- They do not have files of Praga Hospital (potential SK's place of work). When I asked in Praga Hospital itself, they say archives were destroyed
- The same problem is with the files from the Hospital of the Infant Jesus (another potential SK's place of work according to Old Bailey archives of Chapman's trial) from that time
- They could not find any "registration books" or lists of the lodgers from his house at Muranowska(ja) street 16 (But I found many press articles from that era. It wasn't nice and safe place! Burglaries all the time. Later Muranowska street became part of Nazi ghetto in Warsaw. Nowadays there is no old Muranowska street at all)
- The earliest preserved criminal records from Warsaw Regional Court and Prosecutor's Office are from 1888 (! and another failure)
- Kłosowski's name was not mentioned in the records of the Warsaw Prison/Arrest ,
- If he was born in Nagórna, now part of Koło, for his certificate of birth anyone should contact National Archives in Poznań (maybe one day...).

Thats all, folks!

[protohistorian]

cult of jesus of later day saints

[adamkle]

There's real labyrinth of places (villages and small towns) in these documents.
Let's then check SK's way to Warsaw:

- Nagorna(k), district of Kolo - Krassenin (Krasseminsk) - Tyminitsa (Tyshenitsa Nova), district of Ilshetsk (Iltetsk), county of Nodga (Khotche) - Zvolen - Radom - Warsaw

Well, many of these names are at least strange. But I think it could look like this:
1. Nagórna (now part of Koło)
2. Krasienin (map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasienin) - this village is far away from Nagorna, but near the next "stops". The mystery is why SK's parents (?) sent him there. It was so far away... There was a school, small library and church hospital for poor. Maybe they had friends there?
3. Tymienica Nowa (map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tymienica_Nowa), county of Chotcza, district of Ilza (map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iłża). The mistake in the first letter between Nodga-Khotche-Chotcza (spelling "hot-tscha") could be made because "H" from latin alphabet in Russian means "N" (do you remember Christie's "Murder on the Orient Express"? ).
4. Then Zwolen (map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwoleń), Radom (map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radom) and finally Warsaw.
In Zwolen he was student of surgeon M. Rappaport. You can find family of "Moszek Rapaport" from Zwolen on http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/jriplweb.htm. There were also Rapaports in Kolo (potential friends of Kłosowski family?). And in Warsaw there was certificated midwife Fajga Rapaport-Lichner (born 1859, licensed 1884), who lived 39 Zelazna street, quite near Muranowska.
Maybe it's a long shot, I haven't found anything more about her...

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Adam,

If you search the Klosowski threads here, you'll find that I posted a fair bit of info on Moszek ("Moshko") Rappaport's family, as well as the geography of Tymienica, Krasienin etc. I'd re-post the material, but I lost much of it in a hard-drive crash a while back.

To respond to a specific point regarding Zwolen/Krasienin and its distance from Nagórna - I suggest that Klosowski's parents moved there with him, and when Severin was very young. Whilst it's possible that they had friends there, perhaps it's more likely that his carpenter father was attracted by work in the forestry/timber industry in that part of the country.

As to Rapaport... well, it was rather a common Jewish name all over Europe, it seems. Having said that, the midwife/Muranowska connection is rather interesting, so let's hope something turns up.

[Archaic]

[QUOTE=Sam Flynn;96945
Incidentally, the National Archives quoted me a sum well over Ł500 when I applied to obtain copies of the files. I'm keen, but not that keen [/QUOTE]

Oh, Sam, there must be some mistake...

500 Pounds is what they charge to have the desired files hand-copied by Irish monks in the form of Illuminated Manuscripts... check back and this time tell them you just want a Xerox.

Cheers, Archaic

[adamkle]

If you search the Klosowski threads here, you'll find that I posted a fair bit of info on Moszek ("Moshko") Rappaport's family, as well as the geography of Tymienica, Krasienin etc.

Thank you, Sam!

To respond to a specific point regarding Zwolen/Krasienin and its distance from Nagórna - I suggest that Klosowski's parents moved there with him, and when Severin was very young. Whilst it's possible that they had friends there, perhaps it's more likely that his carpenter father was attracted by work in the forestry/timber industry in that part of the country.

What do you think about the possibility that antirussian January Uprising in Congress Poland (1863-1864) and its aftermath were impulses to moving from Nagorna to Krasienin? On this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ba..._1863-1864.JPG) we can see that Krasienin was much calmer region than Koło. So the Russian repressions there could be more moderate. Maybe Kłosowski family just wanted peacuful place.... And we know that in the time of January Uprising anti-tsar solidarity between Poles and Jews was evident. Maybe Rapaports helped Kłosowskis find new place to live... It's just a thought.

[Sam Flynn]

What do you think about the possibility that antirussian January Uprising in Congress Poland (1863-1864) and its aftermath were impulses to moving from Nagorna to Krasienin?

I think it very likely, Adam. You probably know better than I do that 19th Century Poland was a seething vat of change. The specific area to which the Klosowskis moved (Krasienin, Tymienica) was - and still is - notable for its lumber industry, so it would seem a logical place for a carpenter's family to have headed in times of upheaval. At least in such a place there'd have been a good chance for Severin's father to have found decent employment.