change in modus operandi

[lynn cates]

old doctor

Hello Sam. Who needs uteri in their prime? (I'd make a quip here, but had better not--don't wish to be banned.)

The doctor? Well, perhaps he had a taste for older women--perhaps he didn't like the taste of women at all?

Cheers.
LC

[miss_anna]

I believe that of the known suspects Klosowski/Chapman would most likely be the ripper! The big mistake i believe that people make about the ripper is assuming that his main pleasure was derived from slashing and mutilating. I believe jtr's main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the community. As with the btk killer it was important that his victims be discovered.

Klosowoski's poisioning murders occured after his legal name change to Chapman. They were much more sadistic considering the extent of suffering his victims endured. With this modus operandi he could linger at the crime scene.

[Natalie Severn]

While I share your enthusiasm for Chapman/ Klosowski and am glad to see you state it,I personally dont think JtR was particularly bothered about what people might think.Other posters have pointed out that its almost a reflex action , when the throat is suddenly cut open ,for the knees to spread akimbo.Similarly when the belly is suddenly ripped open for the intestines to pop out.So the very nature of these killings gave rise to a subsequently odd arrangement of limbs and internal organs getting displayed.The ripper probably found that the intestines were in his way if he was wanting access to other organs so possibly he lifted them towards the shoulder area away from the body.
If perhaps the killer was Chapman ,then I doubt he gave much thought to how it was all going to look to the people who found the corpses.He seems to have been the sort of man who if he felt like murdering a woman and opening her body up he did so,without any compunction,like he murdered those he poisoned and was executed for.
I do wonder if the ripper may have had some sort of elation when given such total power over his dead victims----possibly similar to what he may have experienced witnessing anaesthetics taking effect when women were about to be "operated on" back in Warsaw"s Praga Hospital.This last is just a thought,since he had not long undergone Hospital training when he left Poland for the UK some time after the end of February 1887.I wonder too,if like Christie he had been some kind of part time abortionist,hinted at by Wolff Levisohn at his trial[ he stated he had asked him where he could acquire certain substances in 1888 and that he,Levisohn,also a feldscher by training,had refused,"not wanting to get himself twelve years in prison" .
Christie too apparently enjoyed seeing the effects of the gas rendering his victims unconscious.

[miss_anna]

While I share your enthusiasm for Chapman/ Klosowski and am glad to see you state it,I personally dont think JtR was particularly bothered about what people might think.Other posters have pointed out that its almost a reflex action , when the throat is suddenly cut open ,for the knees to spread akimbo.Similarly when the belly is suddenly ripped open for the intestines to pop out.So the very nature of these killings gave rise to a subsequently odd arrangement of limbs and internal organs getting displayed.The ripper probably found that the intestines were in his way if he was wanting access to other organs so possibly he lifted them towards the shoulder area away from the body.
If perhaps the killer was Chapman ,then I doubt he gave much thought to how it was all going to look to the people who found the corpses.He seems to have been the sort of man who if he felt like murdering a woman and opening her body up he did so,without any compunction,like he murdered those he poisoned and was executed for.
I do wonder if the ripper may have had some sort of elation when given such total power over his dead victims----possibly similar to what he may have experienced witnessing anaesthetics taking effect when women were about to be "operated on" back in Warsaw"s Praga Hospital.This last is just a thought,since he had not long undergone Hospital training when he left Poland for the UK some time after the end of February 1887.I wonder too,if like Christie he had been some kind of part time abortionist,hinted at by Wolff Levisohn at his trial[ he stated he had asked him where he could acquire certain substances in 1888 and that he,Levisohn,also a feldscher by training,had refused,"not wanting to get himself twelve years in prison" .
Christie too apparently enjoyed seeing the effects of the gas rendering his victims unconscious.

If jtr simply got his pleasure simply from mutilating corpses he could have struck in sparsely populated areas where the risk of being discovered was minimal.

Surgeons are generally trained with human cadavers. You may accuse me of wild speculation, but i can imagine Klosowski in Poland being trained in pitch darkness to operate on cadavers. A good surgeon could do this. I imagine Klosowski was immensely disappointed when his Polish creditentals as a surgeon were rejected by the English medical establishment!

[Natalie Severn]

Good point Anna.I have thought about the possibility that it was precisely because his previous work in Poland wasnt recognised over here and that consequently resulted in him being denied access to an operating theatre or mortuary which he may have caused his morbidity to develop an excess of need for satisfaction and ultimately to know no bounds!I am thinking of his love of guns which he decorated his pubs with, his hanging the stars and stripes flag upside down too in his pubs,revealing a sort of angry misfit .If his unhealthy interest in death had been awakened at the site of dead and sometimes "surgically dissected" bodies at the hospital in Praga,then he probably was hard put to find an outlet for his "interests"!

[miss_anna]

http://www.cafepress.com/+sadists_make_the_best_surgeons_bumper_sticker,44313793

Interesting point Natalie!
I'm not trying to make surgeons look bad, but it's generally accepted as fact that a "sadist" is a much better surgeon than a "touchy feely" doctor who feels plenty of compassion for his patient. Compassionate people just can't seem to be cool and professional when cutting up a human being. There are articles discussing this fact, but i'd have to google them up.

I also noticed Klosowski/Chapman's display of weapons on the wall in these pictures of him with his later murdered wife Bessie Taylor.

The triangle shape of this display of weapons makes me think of the 2 triangular wounds made under under Catherine Eddowes eyes by the ripper.

http://photos.casebook.org/albums/v_4/normal_eddowes_sketch.jpg

I scoff at the freemason conspiracy take on these wounds, but i feel they symbolized something for the ripper.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks for posting these Anna---very helpful! I had actually forgotten where I had seen them and now you"ve reminded me! Stangely enough I knew this about some surgeons from a long time back and I seem to recall that I read about it in a medical book of all things!
Its getting late for me so I will leave it at that for tonight but you raise some compelling issues here you know!
Best
Norma
x
yes---the patterning of triangles may well have been embedded in his consciousness but whether it symbolized anything much is hard to know......

[miss_anna]

Thanks for posting these Anna---very helpful! I had actually forgotten where I had seen them and now you"ve reminded me! Stangely enough I knew this about some surgeons from a long time back and I seem to recall that I read about it in a medical book of all things!
Its getting late for me so I will leave it at that for tonight but you raise some compelling issues here you know!
Best
Norma
x
yes---the patterning of triangles may well have been embedded in his consciousness but whether it symbolized anything much is hard to know......

I guess we can only speculate on the meaning of the 2 triangle shaped wounds..The Maybrick diary believers think the ^^ on Eddowes face should stand for M=Maybrick, but i'm not on that bandwagon or the Illuminati pyramid rants. Being at the top of the pyramid or the king of the mountain has a meaning to an egoist, but of course i can only speculate. Hope you don't have ripper dreams! Best Wishes!

[FrankO]

The big mistake i believe that people make about the ripper is assuming that his main pleasure was derived from slashing and mutilating. I believe jtr's main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the community. As with the btk killer it was important that his victims be discovered.

Hi Anna,

The thing is that the Ripper didn’t kill and mutilate them somewhere indoors first, only to put them on display outdoors afterwards. He also did that outdoors, taking the huge risk of getting caught. If the Ripper’s main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the public, he didn’t need to kill and mutilate outdoors. Plus, he could have just slashed their throats like he did and cut up their faces, for instance. That wouldn’t have taken more than 30 seconds but would still be shocking, whereas his mutilations probably took some minutes at least.

Even if he would have done his business indoors and left the bodies on display there, like with Dennis Rader’s victims, there would have been someone who’d find them and there would have been an audience, who would be shocked.

All in all, in order to shock, I don't think the Ripper needed to do his job outdoors from beginning to end, nor do I think that, if he was so bent on doing things outdoors, he needed to mutilate as extensively as he did, or under the skirts.

All the best,
Frank

[Natalie Severn]

Anna,

I am willing to be persuaded about the ^ ^"s but still cant see much significance as yet. Like Frank I tend to see him having to get at the body itself most importantly -almost like one of the old operations for gall stones he opened the torso up to the breast bone and that seem to have been his aim-bring about death ,then open up the trunk and remove one or two body parts.Mission accomplished!
The knife drawing on the face,nose ears seems to have been a type of "doodling" almost!
Best
Norma

[Sam Flynn]

You may accuse me of wild speculation, but i can imagine Klosowski in Poland being trained in pitch darkness to operate on cadavers. A good surgeon could do this. I imagine Klosowski was immensely disappointed when his Polish creditentals as a surgeon were rejected by the English medical establishment!

Klosowski's hospital tuition only lasted a few months, and cost him the equivalent of 60-something cents. With those sorts of qualifications, not even the Polish medical establishment would have been prepared to hire him as anything but a gofer.

[Natalie Severn]

Klosowski's hospital tuition only lasted a few months, and cost him the equivalent of 60-something cents. With those sorts of qualifications, not even the Polish medical establishment would have been prepared to hire him as anything but a gofer.

point of information Sam,[as if you didnt know already]

After having fulfilled the statutory five year appreticeship to a surgeon in his home town, Klosowski went to Warsaw and in 1886 wrote to "His Excellency the Dean of Medical Faculty of the Imperial University of Warsaw' requesting permission to undergo examination for the purpose of receiving the degree of Junior Surgeon.He enclosed the "required documents".

Town of Praga,[next to Praga Hospital Warsaw]---November 24 1886---
I hereby certify that Severin Klosowski was employed by me in the capacity of assistant surgeon from August 20 1885 until February 1 1886 and during the whole of this time he fulfilled his duties with zeal[you bet!] and was of good behaviour. signed CF Olshanski

He continued to work at the above clinic as an assistant surgeon until taking a short course in practical surgery at the Praga Hospital[October 1886--February 1887 after which all records from Poland come to an abrupt end---he was probably preparing to come to England in March 1887---when he actually arrived we still dont know.


Finally :

Ministry of Interior,Medical Administration of Warsaw December 5 1886.----
In consequence of the application presented by Severin Klosowski,surgical pupil,the Medical Administration hereby testify to the effect that they do not see any reason to oppose his receiving the degree of Junior Surgeon.The required stamp duties have been paid---signed Dr M Oreszaief,Collegiate Councillor and Inspector. A Pominski,Secretary.

[miss_anna]

Anna,

I am willing to be persuaded about the ^ ^"s but still cant see much significance as yet. Like Frank I tend to see him having to get at the body itself most importantly -almost like one of the old operations for gall stones he opened the torso up to the breast bone and that seem to have been his aim-bring about death ,then open up the trunk and remove one or two body parts.Mission accomplished!
The knife drawing on the face,nose ears seems to have been a type of "doodling" almost!
Best
Norma

Hi Natalie!
I noticed this forum has a whole thread on the ^^ marks that were on Eddowes face.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1338

True we can only spectulate and looking at Klowososki's triangular displays of weapons does excite my imagination, but it's nothing that would stand up in court!
Serial killers are so rare about 1 in a million at the most! The argument that serial killers generally follow a pattern is just a generality. The leap from becoming a non serial killer to a serial killer is much much greater than the jump of a serial killer changing his modus operandi of murdering. It should be self evident that Chapman is a prime suspect!

[miss_anna]

Hi Anna,

The thing is that the Ripper didn’t kill and mutilate them somewhere indoors first, only to put them on display outdoors afterwards. He also did that outdoors, taking the huge risk of getting caught. If the Ripper’s main pleasure was in exhibiting his victims and shocking the public, he didn’t need to kill and mutilate outdoors. Plus, he could have just slashed their throats like he did and cut up their faces, for instance. That wouldn’t have taken more than 30 seconds but would still be shocking, whereas his mutilations probably took some minutes at least.

Even if he would have done his business indoors and left the bodies on display there, like with Dennis Rader’s victims, there would have been someone who’d find them and there would have been an audience, who would be shocked.

All in all, in order to shock, I don't think the Ripper needed to do his job outdoors from beginning to end, nor do I think that, if he was so bent on doing things outdoors, he needed to mutilate as extensively as he did, or under the skirts.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank!
I believe the ripper was himself a bit of an exhibitionist and a gambler. "Crazy slashers" like Feigenbaum are generally captured quickly. The ripper was very aware of the risks involved and quickly withdrew from Liz Stride's body when a potential witness approached!

The theory that the murders were committed indoors and the bodies deposited outdoors seems to be alive and well too, although i don't think that was the case.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Anna.Yes I remember that thread now and I can see your train of thought over the curious triangular type injuries on Catherine"s face.The lethal weapons displayed so prominently in the photo you kindly posted of Chapman/Klosowski with Bessie Taylor in their pub are certainly presented in a triangular sequence.The flags hund upside down apparently deliberately also appear to me to show a very contemptuous and angry side to Chapman"s nature.Its as though he might be referring to his weapon display-its guns and swords as weapons of war that could be used to destroy the countries represented by their flag---not as weapons of war that could be used to defend these countries as if that were the case he would surely have hung the stars and stripes the right way up?
The triangular injuries to her face may be the killers response to the triangular shape cut he noted that happened as he cut off the tip of her nose,by adding these two inverted "v"s under both her eyes he "drew" a triangular pattern on her face.I dont know what an obsession with triangles might denote apart from a sense of destructive design in these cases that may have satisfied something in him. Its worth considering I do agree.
I had a long conversation with Caz at the conference about the change in M O and we agreed that a serial killer such as Chapman with such a mercurial personality as he had, would have been unlikely to have stayed with one type of MO anyway, throughout a period of 15 years or more.Chapman made many changes in his life--changes of name,partners,jobs- he was an assistant surgeon in Poland,a barber then a publican here in the uk,he had many, many changes of digs -the districts and countries of those digs even--- 3 places in Poland,about 8 different places in London,then America,back to London,then Hastings,London again latterly--- in 1902 close to the river in Union Street, Southwark.His very changeable unsettled behaviour is one of the most significant features of his life in fact.
Best