change in modus operandi

[perrymason]

Hi again Nats,

Ive recently been watching a Discovery Channel Docu-series on Serial Killers, and it seems to me that the satisfaction that some of them derive is never better than with their very first realization of their dark desires.

So why do they keep killing? To try and recapture a feeling that accompanies only a "first" effort? If they are not mad, they know they cant do that...but they kill again anyway....because as Dave suggests, once they taste that forbidden fruit, they are addicted to performing the acts that they get the most exhilaration or satisfaction from in life.

Thats why my amateur sleuth self believes that a man who killed like the man nicknamed the Ripper did would continue to have physical compulsions to do similar acts. I dont see slowly taking life equal to the satisfaction level he must have felt by taking life swiftly so as to do more ghoulish acts.

Cheers Nats

[protohistorian]

if the charge the killer got was tied to the agony and fear I could easily see how dragging it out for months would be appealing. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Hi again Nats,

Ive recently been watching a Discovery Channel Docu-series on Serial Killers, and it seems to me that the satisfaction that some of them derive is never better than with their very first realization of their dark desires.

So why do they keep killing? To try and recapture a feeling that accompanies only a "first" effort? If they are not mad, they know they cant do that...but they kill again anyway....because as Dave suggests, once they taste that forbidden fruit, they are addicted to performing the acts that they get the most exhilaration or satisfaction from in life.

Thats why my amateur sleuth self believes that a man who killed like the man nicknamed the Ripper did would continue to have physical compulsions to do similar acts. I dont see slowly taking life equal to the satisfaction level he must have felt by taking life swiftly so as to do more ghoulish acts.

Cheers Nats

Hi Mike,
So when the recent serial killer, Robert Napper ,cold bloodedly stabbed Rachel Nickel some 49 times on Wimbledon Common 15 years ago ,[almost certainly as a result of his "voices" giving him such a "command"],you believe he was actually "enjoying" himself Mike,responding to his "dark desires"?
And when he murdered and mutilated another young mother, indoors,a very close replica of the murder and mutilation of Mary Kelly ,he was probably "addicted" to killing ?
But thats not what several psychiatrists and psychologists believed because he is down as having multiple delusions about himself,believing himself to have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for one thing.
They say he is suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and I doubt very much they would be prepared to say this if it wasnt the case.The police are currently interviewing him about a number of other unsolved "outdoor" stabbings they now think he committed,several of which resulted in the death of the women involved.
So here we have a serial killer,one of whose killings resemble one of those attributed to the ripper ,and there may be more,whose illness has been defined for us by the prison psychiatric team.

Where does this leave all the "conventional" thinking about the "known" behaviour of serial killers?

[Natalie Severn]

if the charge the killer got was tied to the agony and fear I could easily see how dragging it out for months would be appealing. Respectfully Dave

On the other hand Dave, Chapman may simply not have had any empathy for these women .He may have been a bit touched and believed their death to be necessary.

[Natalie Severn]

Again, Nats, we don't know that. He might have been managing it for/leasing it from Mr Radin, he might have had assistant barbers sleeping on the premises, he himself might have lived off the premises, using Cable Street only as a business/postal address.

Ofcourse he may have Sam.But then you could argue like this over Mary Kelly and suggest she had her all girl friends lined up ,end to end in her big brass bed every night and thats why Joe left etc.
The Post Office Directory of 1889 has Severin Klosowski down as living at his Barber shop ,126 Cable Street and this must mean he was there for some time in 1888----I dont need to be reminded that it may only have been from November 10th 1888 I do accept that may have been the case,even though its highly unlikely!


The Post Office Directory does not have anyone else living there Sam,so it may be reasonably safe to conclude he did not have assistant barbers lined up end to end on the floor of his barbers shop in Cable Street in 1888 .

[perrymason]

Hi Nats,

A killer might continue killing for many reasons I didnt list....I fully agree, including to obey voices and other forms of dementia that prod him along. My point was...that Dave commented on....was that a person who is satisfied in some fashion not from the actual killing itself but the acts that are performed after the murder doesnt seem to me someone who could later be satisfied by only murder...and a prolonged period elapsing before any "killers" gratification is delivered.

David mentioned watching them suffer perhaps as a suitable replacement....my answer would be that he had no interest in prolonging the death blow or stretching the moment out before...in the case of Mary Kelly if Jack killed her and other Canonicals....its the postmortem activity that takes the overwhelming amount of his overall attack time. Nor the murder itself.

Kates total attack timing should make that clear, if she is seen with her killer just before by Lawende.

Cheers Nats

[protohistorian]

To be sure, Empathy to Severin was an act he played to indulge those around him. The danger with the nomenclature "insane" is that it applies only in the broadest and most simplistic case. There are several hundred conditions that could render one "insane". These conditions range from psychological on one end of the spectrum, to cultural. I am assuming, since you have mentioned him hearing voices, you believe he is internally incapable of processing reality, the obvious problem being his work record and mentoring which seem to have been at least passable in regards to their connectivity to reality. The other rather large consideration is the small number of serial murderers that are diagnosed with severe mental disorders.

[perrymason]

To be sure, Empathy to Severin was an act he played to indulge those around him. The danger with the nomenclature "insane" is that it applies only in the broadest and most simplistic case. There are several hundred conditions that could render one "insane". These conditions range from psychological on one end of the spectrum, to cultural. I am assuming, since you have mentioned him hearing voices, you believe he is internally incapable of processing reality, the obvious problem being his work record and mentoring which seem to have been at least passable in regards to their connectivity to reality. The other rather large consideration is the small number of serial murderers that are diagnosed with severe mental disorders.

Hi David,

That last bit I highlighted is an important consideration I think...many serial killers that have been interviewed post murders were of average or above intelligence and thought to be mentally competent when they committed horrendous acts.

I dont think its a requirement that Jack was overtly mentally disturbed at all, myself.

Best regards

[Natalie Severn]

Dave,
I think his work record was quite chequered.He kept changing location and finally ran several different pubs in under five years.


Mike,
He was hardly a mentally well cookie now was he?

[protohistorian]

Dave,
I think his work record was quite chequered.He kept changing location and finally ran several different pubs in under five years.


Mike,
He was hardly a mentally well cookie now was he?

Certainly not sterling by modern standards. It would be nice to know why he left so many situations. About the bars, I would look at unsolved homocides around them. He may have very well been using them as places to target people. I would not put it past him. My school load is getting heavy, so I am going to be scarce for awhile. Respectfully Dave

[Sam Flynn]

The Post Office Directory does not have anyone else living there Sam,so it may be reasonably safe to conclude he did not have assistant barbers lined up end to end on the floor of his barbers shop in Cable Street in 1888 .

If Klosowski was the owner/manager, Nats, then why should his subordinates be listed in the Directory as well? In addition, it's still possible that Cable Street was a (rented) business premises and that Klosowski at that time lived in digs elsewhere. I can well imagine that, back then, the PO Directory was more of a "Yellow Pages" than a domestic Phone Book - at least as far as the lower classes were concerned.

[Natalie Severn]

Certainly not sterling by modern standards. It would be nice to know why he left so many situations. About the bars, I would look at unsolved homocides around them. He may have very well been using them as places to target people. I would not put it past him. My school load is getting heavy, so I am going to be scarce for awhile. Respectfully Dave

Before you go Dave,it has been very helpful to read your thoughts on Chapman so I hope you get back soon.I too am convinced that he knew he was likely to meet unchaperoned women needing money in his pubs.I bet the earth under the floor boards of these pubs could have told a tale---especially after he had got rid of his last two wives.

[Natalie Severn]

If Klosowski was the owner/manager, Nats, then why should his subordinates be listed in the Directory as well? In addition, it's still possible that Cable Street was a (rented) business premises and that Klosowski at that time lived in digs elsewhere. I can well imagine that, back then, the PO Directory was more of a "Yellow Pages" than a domestic Phone Book - at least as far as the lower classes were concerned.

Well this has to be investigated and can be by going to Holborn Library at some point.

I am sure Cable Street would have been a rented business premises,Sam.However I was thinking more that London"s Barber shops mostly have and had basements----you can still see lots of them in areas around Cheapside.I used to know someone who took a lease out on a barber shop in Holborn a few years back.It had a spooky staircase down to a basement which she and her partner did up with fresh paint and made in into a place to sleep in .All it had was a sink when they first had the lease.
And no, Klosowski didnt need to actually "live" there,just be able to use it,whenever he needed as when for example , he badly needed a wash and brush up [late at night?]----all nice and deserted just behind the railway lines and Pinchin Street!
But I doubt very much that Severin would have let the lads in after hours----unless he was another Dennis Nielsen ofcourse!

[protohistorian]

Not really leaving Nat's, just scaling back. By the way, how was Egypt? Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Egypt was absolutely fantastic Dave.And the Egyptians were gorgeous-especially the men---!