change in modus operandi

[corey123]

Hello Leslie,

Well I don't know if it wasn't luck but I know for a fact that Jack the Ripper didn't want to be caught. Take out the fact part and you have my personal opinion

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Macknnc,
I am sure its true to say Klosowski aka Chapman didn"t " want to get caught ", but he certainly appears to have taken risks---sometimes making stupid jokes to his "wive"s" friends ---like Bessie"s anxious friend,Mrs Painter ,who called daily to see her ,saying that Bessie was already dead ---[while he was all the while poisoning her]--and when she went up to see her finding her still alive .At the end finally telling her friend that she was "much about the same" when she had actually been lying dead since the previous day.[Sugden]
Not long after Bessie"s death on 7th February 1901, when he had managed to bury her without arousing suspicion, he was single again for several months ---its a pity the police didnt look in the Thames or at least dig up his garden and take a look under the floor boards to see if there were any other victims.Today they would--- they are doing so with serial killer Tobin even going back to the 1960"s.So a search at least of his batchelor days in 1888 around the time he entered his address in the East End Post Office Directories as 126 Cable Street .
By August 1901 he had found a victim in a newly appointed barmaid in his pub, 18 year old Maud Marsh, who he was ready to dispose of by August the following year.He began more amorous shenanigans with another newly appointed barmaid in his pub in Southwark but when she reminded him he had a wife,Chapman snapped his fingers at her and said,"Oh,I"d give her that and she would be no more "Mrs Chapman"!
So here,are two examples -and Maud"s sister and mother gave other examples of similar incriminating remarks he made .Not really the safest thing to do to avoid arousing suspicion I wouldn"t have thought.

Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Leslie,

Well I don't know if it wasn't luck but I know for a fact that Jack the Ripper didn't want to be caught. Take out the fact part and you have my personal opinion

Yes,I agree.

[corey123]

Hello Nats,

Which part, about him not wanting to get caught or that it is only my personal opinon?

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Nats,

Which part, about him not wanting to get caught or that it is only my personal opinon?

Hi Corey-----both parts

[corey123]

Hello Nats,

Good to know. The suggestion that he would want to get caught kind of blows my mind. I understand that when a serial killer is caught, they are relieved and pysically ill, but they would do anything at all costs to keep their fantasies at play.

However, this does not play in some factors like stupidity(Neil Creme lol) or just plain rage, sort of like spree killers. Of coarse, they usually end up taking their own lives in the end as well, just another point to prove that killers don't want to be caught.

Ok, my rant is over.

[macknnc]

"Wanting' to be caught, not caring if he was caught and so on...bad phrasing on my part...Of course the Ripper did not want to caught..

but he did take more chances than Chapman...for an example, killing with people likely to come by any second...In fact, this is what apparently happened with Stride..Three of his five victims, Nichols, Stride and Eddowes were discovered within minutes...(seconds in Stride's case) Even Chapman, not found for more or less an hour, was killed in fairly heavily traveled area and the Ripper knew people would be coming into No. 29's yard at any moment..

Chapman's 'chances telling people his wife was getting better, or getting worse then sending them up to see her where they found the poor woman in the exact opposite condition he had described, I attribute more to a sick sadistic sense of humor..

[Rubyretro]

but he did take more chances than Chapman...for an example, killing with people likely to come by any second...

I actually don't agree with you..

Chapman was killing people that he knew and he was obviously linked to..and he killed them at home.

JtR killed strangers, in public places. There was no link to himself at all.

Whilst public places seem more dangerous at first sight, if we actually look at each murder site, then they weren't so very dangerous as they appear :

Polly -the first, and probably not so planned (if at all). Jack was quick -and he had a clear view of anyone approaching, and plenty of room to escape.

Annie -I believe fully Van der Linden's assessement that she was killed more like 4.30 am (which agrees with the doctor), and in a dark and private yard,
impossible to see from the upper windows of the house. He would have had the advantage of surprise on anyone walking in from the corridor.

Liz -the yard was so dark, that a club member had to feel his way along the walls to get back into the club. Jack was near the gates and could get out quick if he heard noise from the street..as he did when Diemschitz arrived.

Kate -he probably knew the time that the Policeman would pass, and that Maurice wouldn't investigate, and there were different entrances to the Square -and again it was very dark with lots of space to move in.

MJK -it was a private room and the girl lived alone (I'm sure that he knew).

He could have been caught out by a bit of bad luck -but I think that he planned and put 'luck' on his side as much as possible..and finally the proof of the pudding etc..

He was never caught, and we still can't know who he was for sure..

[Jason]

I think the Chapman murder was extremely risky and heres why. If that yard was known to ladies as a suitable place for business, who is to say that when he went in there with her that he didnt know that someone else was already using it for business ? if it were so dark then he must have wondered whether while he was going about his business that there was the possibility that someone was either already in the yard o could enter with a client at any given moment. Given that there was only one way in, and one way out, that was a massive risk.

[Pablito]

scanning machine

Hi Nats,

Hope you are well. I think the two of us discussed the thing about police digging up his properties before over email and I think what the police are using now in the case of Tobin is called a 'scanning machine', which detects layers of earth that have been unusually disturbed or irregularities under the ground, in the concrete etc.

The Cable Street property is gone but it may be an interesting idea to see how many of his properties still survive during the periods in which he was a single man, which wasn't very often i grant you. What about his property in West Green Road, that still there? Hope you are well.

Pablito

Hi Macknnc,
I am sure its true to say Klosowski aka Chapman didn"t " want to get caught ", but he certainly appears to have taken risks---sometimes making stupid jokes to his "wive"s" friends ---like Bessie"s anxious friend,Mrs Painter ,who called daily to see her ,saying that Bessie was already dead ---[while he was all the while poisoning her]--and when she went up to see her finding her still alive .At the end finally telling her friend that she was "much about the same" when she had actually been lying dead since the previous day.[Sugden]
Not long after Bessie"s death on 7th February 1901, when he had managed to bury her without arousing suspicion, he was single again for several months ---its a pity the police didnt look in the Thames or at least dig up his garden and take a look under the floor boards to see if there were any other victims.Today they would--- they are doing so with serial killer Tobin even going back to the 1960"s.So a search at least of his batchelor days in 1888 around the time he entered his address in the East End Post Office Directories as 126 Cable Street .
By August 1901 he had found a victim in a newly appointed barmaid in his pub, 18 year old Maud Marsh, who he was ready to dispose of by August the following year.He began more amorous shenanigans with another newly appointed barmaid in his pub in Southwark but when she reminded him he had a wife,Chapman snapped his fingers at her and said,"Oh,I"d give her that and she would be no more "Mrs Chapman"!
So here,are two examples -and Maud"s sister and mother gave other examples of similar incriminating remarks he made .Not really the safest thing to do to avoid arousing suspicion I wouldn"t have thought.

Norma

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Pablito;149354]Hi Nats,

Hope you are well. I think the two of us discussed the thing about police digging up his properties before over email and I think what the police are using now in the case of Tobin is called a 'scanning machine', which detects layers of earth that have been unusually disturbed or irregularities under the ground, in the concrete etc.

The Cable Street property is gone but it may be an interesting idea to see how many of his properties still survive during the periods in which he was a single man, which wasn't very often i grant you. What about his property in West Green Road, that still there? Hope you are well.
Pablito/[QUOTE]

Hi Pablito,
The Crown is still there in Southwark and I think it was Rob Clack who posted a photo of it.But how on earth would one go about requesting a scan?
Good to see you posting again.
Cheers,
Norma

[Pablito]

Hi Norma,

Can't think of a way of doing that without being sworn at and thrown out of the pub!

Just thinking in the long term, it might be in the interests of the pub owner, i.e adding historical interest to the pub to get him/her interested. Or somehow getting the local media interested in the Crown's association with Severin, but coming at it from the angle of a wife poisoner, rather than mentioning anything about JTR... and then after all that hardwork... we will probably discover nothing as he either dumped dismembered bodies in the Thames or left them under arches according to our theories. But that's the only way to be sure there is nothing there. After all, other serial murderers have to have their ex - properties scanned so why not him? Well, i'll answer my own question: because he's been dead for over 100 years and so the police will think theres no point! Ah, well it was worth a shot.

Wasn't he married whilst he was at the Crown? Can you send me the link to Rob Clack's photo?

Cheers, P

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Pablito,
If you scroll down the main Klosowski thread here you will come to a thread entitled "The Crown....".Mark Ripper took the photo actually and he rediscovered it in Southwark when others had thought it was demolished and as you will see its apparently no longer a pub.
Klosowski wasnt there for very long.He was still at The Monument when he met Maud Marsh but he set fire to it in December 1901 moving to The Crown with Maud on December 25 1901,also in Southwark.He may have burnt down the Monument Pub to hide something sinister as well as claim insurance money on it! He and Bessie had lived there before he poisoned her in February 1901.I would imagine he could have been up to something between her death and meeting Maud Marsh in August 1901.Trouble is he never stayed long anywhere!
Best
Norma

[Pablito]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1066

Thanks. Just saw it, Norma. A technology institute now. Well there's no better place to try out the latest in police technology... coming at it from the angle that this was once a wife murderer, and any research into a 100 year old murder case could make their property a place of historical interest. Also they are less likely to swear at me, but they'll probably be a bit freaked out and just think im a nutter, which i can live with. I might draw up a letter and see where it goes - probably nowhere, but hey, all avenues must be explored

ATB,
P

[Natalie Severn]

Well Pablito I wish you the very best! Please do keep me updated on it!
Cheers,
Norma