For Proto

[Cap'n Jack]

This was my first doubt:

'WOLFF LEVISOHN . I live at 135, Rosslyn Road, South Tottenham, and am a traveller in hairdressers' appliances—I have known the prisoner since 1888, when I met him in a hairdressers shop in Whitechapel—I spoke to him in Yiddish—he said he came from Warsaw—I knew him as Ludwig Zagovski—we met from time to time up to 1890—he told me that in Warsaw he had been practising in the medical line as a "faldscher" at the Prague Hospital—f have been a "faldscher "myself—I had seven years' training in the Russian Army—a "faldscher "is an assistant to a doctor—I talked to the prisoner about medicines—he asked me if I could get him a medicine—I said no; I did not want to get twelve years—I had a customer named Haddin, at 5. West Green Road. South Tottenham—about 1894 or 1895 I called at Haddin's and saw the prisoner there—he was an assistant—he afterwards bought Haddin's shop himself—it was in the High Road, Tottenham—he sold that, and went away for several months, and then came back to a shop opposite Bruce Grove railway station—I called upon him there—I lost sight of him for a time, and I next saw him in custody—when a man becomes a "faldscher" in the Russian Army we get a book given us which states everything right through the service, and in the civil hospitals they get certificates—the prisoner could not be a soldier because he was too young when he came over here.'

[protohistorian]

This was my first doubt:

'WOLFF LEVISOHN . I live at 135, Rosslyn Road, South Tottenham, and am a traveller in hairdressers' appliances—I have known the prisoner since 1888, when I met him in a hairdressers shop in Whitechapel—I spoke to him in Yiddish—he said he came from Warsaw—I knew him as Ludwig Zagovski—we met from time to time up to 1890—he told me that in Warsaw he had been practising in the medical line as a "faldscher" at the Prague Hospital—f have been a "faldscher "myself—I had seven years' training in the Russian Army—a "faldscher "is an assistant to a doctor—I talked to the prisoner about medicines—he asked me if I could get him a medicine—I said no; I did not want to get twelve years—I had a customer named Haddin, at 5. West Green Road. South Tottenham—about 1894 or 1895 I called at Haddin's and saw the prisoner there—he was an assistant—he afterwards bought Haddin's shop himself—it was in the High Road, Tottenham—he sold that, and went away for several months, and then came back to a shop opposite Bruce Grove railway station—I called upon him there—I lost sight of him for a time, and I next saw him in custody—when a man becomes a "faldscher" in the Russian Army we get a book given us which states everything right through the service, and in the civil hospitals they get certificates—the prisoner could not be a soldier because he was too young when he came over here.'

I always assumed the enlistment he weaseled out of he called being a soldier. Respectfully Dave

[Cap'n Jack]

So you are prepared to accept that he had a civil career as faldscher but not a military career?

[protohistorian]

So you are prepared to accept that he had a civil career as faldscher but not a military career?

indeed that is my opinion. Respectfully Dave

[Cap'n Jack]

I just discovered a thread that I contributed to years ago about this, but it is off line at the mo, but to be honest with you I do think the application you seek to plaster on the wound here only applied after the first world war.

[protohistorian]

I just discovered a thread that I contributed to years ago about this, but it is off line at the mo, but to be honest with you I do think the application you seek to plaster on the wound here only applied after the first world war.

At your leisure sir!

[Cap'n Jack]

It's blocked to me at the mo 'cos I'm banned from that site.
But your contention is that Severino began his medical training at the tender age of fourteen?

[protohistorian]

was apprenticed at that age yes

It's blocked to me at the mo 'cos I'm banned from that site.
But your contention is that Severino began his medical training at the tender age of fourteen?

If one is inclined to believe his captured documents, which I generally do.

[Natalie Severn]

It's blocked to me at the mo 'cos I'm banned from that site.
But your contention is that Severino began his medical training at the tender age of fourteen?

Hi Ap
The age of fourteen/fifteen was the age here too in Britain, at which all apprentices in surgery began their apprenticeships --- up until the latter quarter of the nineteenth century. The poet John Keats began his 5 year apprenticeship at his local doctor"s Thomas Hammond, in Edmonton at the age of 14 years 10 months graduating after his five years were up to Guy"s Hospital in London for a short course in Practical Surgery.This was during the first quarter of the nineteenth century in London-see Robert Gittings biography of Keats .
Much of what took place in Poland in the nineteenth century ,especially in those health and municipal programmes instituted in the 1870"s such as its innovatory sewage and gas works begun in Warsaw,applied throughout Europe,including Eastern Europe and especially in those areas in and around the Ukraine which had had Hospital systems that were vastly superior to those in Britain ,due to an expansion programmes intitiated by Emperor Jospeph[probably to save his political skin] in Austria who had intitiated a huge expansion programme for German speaking territories in the late 18th century.
Severin Klosowski"s medical training is actually well documented ,Ap,and was posted on casebook,with dates, by Gareth Williams,aka Sam,
Natalie

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks for that Natalie, I'll go off now and 'af 'umble pie for me good dinner.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks for that Natalie, I'll go off now and 'af 'umble pie for me good dinner.

---hope it tasted good cap"n!

[Sam Flynn]

Eastern Europe and especially in those areas in and around the Ukraine which had had Hospital systems that were vastly superior to those in Britain.

I can't quite agree with you there, Nats - at least, not to the extent where one could generalise to Poland, which remained predominantly an admixture of church, peasantry and minor aristocracy throughout the 19th Century. Yes, there were universities, but they were comparatively few and far between, and the model for learning in Poland until the 20th Century was based largely on "practical" schooling for its largely artisan population, and self-funded private tuition for those who could afford it. In line with this practical ethos, the universities themselves were more geared to those subjects that could support the main Polish industries - physical sciences and technologies - with Warsaw's first Polytechnic Institute only founded in the 1890s. There was a medical faculty at the University of Warsaw, but during Klosowski's time it was largely under Russian control, with Russian the official language, in an effort to "Russify" the Poles.

If you look at the history of medical schools in Poland, you'll find a rather different picture to what the rest of Europe was used to. Only two establishments seem to have had any medical faculty during Klosowski's day, these being the Collegium Medicum in Cracow (founded 1364), and the University of Warsaw (founded early 1800s). Compare this meagre provision with France, Britain and Germany at any point in their history, and medicine in Poland seems to have had a bit of a raw deal. Indeed, medical schools proper seem only to have proliferated in Poland during the early part of the 20th Century, and more have opened since the end of the Second World War. Small wonder, then, that the feldsheren remained active in Poland, and other war-torn and/or impoverished parts of Eastern Europe, until quite some time into the last century.

[Natalie Severn]

I can't quite agree with you there, Nats - at least, not to the extent where one could generalise to Poland, which remained predominantly an admixture of church, peasantry and minor aristocracy throughout the 19th Century. Yes, there were universities, but they were comparatively few and far between, and the model for learning in Poland until the 20th Century was based largely on "practical" schooling for its largely artisan population, and self-funded private tuition for those who could afford it. In line with this practical ethos, the universities themselves were more geared to those subjects that could support the main Polish industries - physical sciences and technologies - with Warsaw's first Polytechnic Institute only founded in the 1890s. There was a medical faculty at the University of Warsaw, but during Klosowski's time it was largely under Russian control, with Russian the official language, in an effort to "Russify" the Poles

If you look at the history of medical schools in Poland, you'll find a rather different picture to what the rest of Europe was used to. Only two establishments seem to have had any medical faculty during Klosowski's day, these being the Collegium Medicum in Cracow (founded 1364), and the University of Warsaw (founded early 1800s). Compare this meagre provision with France, Britain and Germany at any point in their history, and medicine in Poland seems to have had a bit of a raw deal. Indeed, medical schools proper seem only to have proliferated in Poland during the early part of the 20th Century, and more have opened since the end of the Second World War. Small wonder, then, that the feldsheren remained active in Poland, and other war-torn and/or impoverished parts of Eastern Europe, until quite some time into the last century.

It is quite difficult to discuss this on a message board Sam,especially since I have long since returned to the library the excellent book I had on the subject which comprehensively covered the growth of medicine in Europe and Eastern Europe and specifically mentioned the large Warsaw hospital of Prago.This was where Severin Klosowski completed his surgical training ,if I remember correctly,to the level of that of assistant or junior surgeon.Specific mention was made in the book of medical advances at this Warsaw hospital in the 1870"s .This same Warsaw medical faculty, incidently, where Marie Curie,one of the greatest of all medical scientists, undertook her early training in radiation in the 1890"s---so the Warsaw Poles couldnt have been that backward and impoverished in the latter part of the 19th century.
But certainly its the case that the wider Poland was the poor country you describe ,and certainly by comparison to Warsaw, its capital which after all was where Severin chose to finish his studies and where he paid his last bill for fees to the University.

[Sam Flynn]

This same Warsaw medical faculty incidently, where Marie Curie,one of the greatest of all medical scientists, undertook her early training in radiation in the 1890"s

Curie didn't study at Warsaw University (she was a woman, so they wouldn't allow here in), nor at the Praga hospital, as far as I'm aware, Nats.

Before she decamped to Paris in the early 1890s (where her education really took flight), Curie studied at Warsaw's "Floating University", so-called because it was something of a subversive establishment that sought to give Poles a "proper" education, then perceived as being denied to those who attended the Russian-dominated Warsaw University. It's important to note, also, that Curie was from a comparatively well-off family of teachers and academics, and could afford the sort of private tuition that would have been denied to country hicks like Klosowski.

But certainly its the case that the wider Poland was the poor country you describe ,and certainly by comparison to Warsaw, its capital which after all was where Severin chose to finish his studies and where he paid his last bill for fees to the University.

Indeed, Nats, but it clearly didn't amount to much, his tuition fees equivalent then to roughly 58 US cents. I can't see the likes of Curie queuing up to enrol in those sorts of courses at the Praga, even if she had studied there.

[Natalie Severn]

You seem very determined ,Sam,to "diminish" any qualification Severin Klosowski achieved-why can that be I wonder?
The fact remains that for the final two years of his seven years of medical studies ie 1885- 1887 , he worked in Warsaw as an "assistant surgeon" or "feldscher". Perhaps even more importantly, his final certificated achievements [February 1887] were seen and accepted by the medical authorities in Warsaw University as being of sufficient calibre to qualify him as a "JUNIOR SURGEON" there-a category of qualification that was superior to an "assistant surgeon " or "feldscher".
It seems to me to be a bit elitist Sam to be honest, pouring scorn on Poland"s 19th century medical establishments the way you are doing - if you care to read Roy Porter"s "Cambridge Illustrated History of Medicine"[,obtainable from most public libraries], I believe you will find that the Prago Hospital and its attached medical faculties in Warsaw where Klosowski studied, ranked quite highly among European medical establishments at the time.
The British Medical Institutions at the time were by no means the best in Europe.In the 19th century in terms of research, innovation technology and prestige, Paris far outstripped London in terms of medicine and surgery----and it was to Paris , the Warsaw educated Marie Curie went to further and complete her pioneering research into a cure for cancer through radiation .